Trevor Young, the PR Warrior shares his thinking with Darren on the importance of professionals developing a strong personal brand and why some marketers find it so hard to do. From his book Micro Domination he shares ways professionals can build a reputation as a thought leader in their profession.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome. I’m here today with Trevor Young who is the founder of PR Warrior but Trevor’s also got a really interesting book which I think has got some great insights, called, microDOMINATION.
Welcome Trevor.
Trevor:
Thank you Darren. Can you remember the subtitle of that book?
Darren:
The subtitle? No I can’t. What is it?
Building Your Personal Brand
Trevor:
It took me a while to learn this by heart and here goes, “How to leverage social media and content marketing to build a mini business empire around your personal brand”.
Darren:
Around your personal brand. And that’s what I wanted to talk to you about, because Al Ries, in his book, “22 Immutable Laws of Branding” gives the best definition of a brand.
He says, “Any pronoun is a potential brand” and I love that.
Trevor:
I hadn’t heard that one.
Darren:
So any pronoun can be a potential brand. Trevor Young, PR Warrior, Darren Woolley, TrinityP3. So, really, what I like about microDOMINATION is it’s almost like a “why and how to” book on building that personal brand, your pronoun.
Trevor:
Well it is. I like the Jeff Bezos one, it’s probably overused these days, but “Your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room” which begs the question then, what do you want people to say about you when you’re not in the room?
Darren:
And that goes to the heart of the concept of brand management, doesn’t it?
Trevor:
Yes it does. And I think that’s the thing. Why wouldn’t you want to influence that? Why wouldn’t you want to?
If people’s collective experiences of having come into contact with you will determine your brand – not what you say it is – then why wouldn’t you want to influence that?
And if you go back five or ten years it’s in person, or they read about you in an industry journal, or on the phone or email, that’s where those connections are. But we’ve got so many more channels that we need to be consistent across today.
Is it narcissistic to build or influence your own personal brand?
Darren:
I’ll tell you why I think people don’t want to do it. It’s because if a brand can be any pronoun, the perpendicular pronoun I, a lot of people feel that building their own or having any influence over their personal brand is incredibly narcissistic.
Trevor:
I can see where that comes from and I get it, but I don’t believe it any more. There’s a couple of reasons why I think people don’t. Professionals and marketers are in that bag but I think it’s more than just marketers, I think it’s business professionals and senior executives generally.
Darren:
And celebrities.
Trevor:
Well, there’s a little bit of narcissism there.
Darren:
You look at some of the celebrities on Twitter and Instagram and some have got millions and millions of followers, but in actual fact, what is their talent, apart from being famous?
Trevor:
Well that’s right and it’s all about them and you can tell a lot about a person on Twitter – whether they actually talk back to you or not and whether they follow other people or whether they don’t.
What we see with celebrities is yes, they’ve got big followings, but they’re brands or companies and organisations that are on Twitter a lot. They won’t follow anyone and they might favourite things or re-Tweet, but they won’t actually talk to people.
Darren:
There’s no conversation.
Trevor:
Yes, there’s no conversation.
Darren:
No engagement because I’m the celebrity and you’re not.
What stops people putting themselves out there?
Trevor:
If I look at business professionals, generally senior executives, when we come to personal brands, there are probably two things that are stopping people from actually going down that track.
I’ve learnt to love the phrase, “personal branding”, the same with “thought leadership”, they are both areas that people love to beat up on but until people can come up with better phrases, we’re stuck with them, so let’s try and look at the positives of them because there are positives.
I think fear and apathy are two things that do probably stop people and if we look at the fear, there’s a lot of people, particularly in Australia, we’re quite conservative in the business world. Business generally is quite conservative and people don’t really like putting themselves out there all that often.
I mean, it’s not easy, you know my background Darren. I’ve been in PR, I’ve been the one to pull the strings and push my clients out into the spotlight and they’re the ones that have had to front the media in the past.
And now I’ve had to do it and I’ve been blogging since 2007 and on Twitter and social media but it did take me a while to get comfortable with the notion of putting myself out there. So there is a bit of fear around that but it’s also maybe a bit cultural that we don’t like doing the big note, the fear of big noting, I think that falls into that arena.
The second one, the apathy, I think is probably that they don’t believe it. It’s the same people that think that social media is a fad or whatever. You know, a lot of people don’t believe.
Darren:
The inter-web is going to happen or may happen one day.
Trevor:
So a lot of people don’t believe in the notion of personal branding so that’s an apathy thing. I think you’ve got to get over that hump as well.
Brands need to be human
Darren:
Except that people have relationships with people. I am increasingly of the view that it’s very hard for someone to have a relationship with a brand in a true way. Meaning a brand as in a corporation or a company. The human face of that corporation is actually what people buy into.
Trevor:
That’s right, and they do business with who they know, like and trust. And that’s people.
Darren:
So you would wonder why there are not more people out there representing their corporate brands. CEOs for instance get a lot of help and work around, what do they call it, corporate strategy?
How to be seen in the press and deal with the media to make the shareholders and the investors feel good. But they don’t do a lot in this country around actually engaging with customers, do they?
Trevor:
Well no, they don’t.
Darren:
On a personal level.
Personal branding is not about creating a persona you think people will like
Trevor:
On a personal level, no they don’t. And I think it’s a major issue. And when they do talk personal branding, I’ve heard of some stories where they, CEOs and senior leaders and executives go to an acting school.
There are acting schools that take people through these presentations, how to boost your personal brand is what they say. Cate Blanchett is a great actor. You’re not going to be Cate Blanchett. You’re going to get caught out one day if you’re creating a persona. Personal branding is not creating a persona that you think people will like or what the media wants.
Darren:
I absolutely agree with you because even look at actors. They are great performers. You used Cate Blanchett, but let’s use Mel Gibson. Great actor in front of the camera but look how his personal brand has taken an absolute battering in the last few years. Because the real person or the other Mel Gibson, has come through the media with drunk driving, racial abuse, all of these things as well.
It’s very hard to sustain a performance in the modern Internet, social media era, that will hold up to that sort of interrogation.
Trevor:
You can’t. Everyone’s got an iPhone with a camera on it and you will be snapped. There are so many more channels if you want to raise your visibility and build influence and trust in the marketplace and why wouldn’t you?
You need to use these channels and you need to be consistent across these channels. If you’re crafting a persona and you’re a blogger and you’re snarky or you get in people’s faces or you have a very, very hard rapport, for example. If you then get on stage and you’re meek and mild, or someone meets you at an event and you’re meek and mild. There’s a disconnect.
Darren:
Absolutely.
Trevor:
Now I think what you’ve done well is you’ve always been provocative in what you write and say.
Darren:
Thought provoking.
Trevor:
Thought provoking, thought leader, there you go.
But you’re like that on stage, you’re like that in person, you’re like that on Twitter.
Darren:
I could not sustain a particular persona unless it was part of me and I think that’s where I like the word curate which is another one of those words that has become incredibly debased by people. All curate means is to filter. Filter through a set of criteria for what I’m going to share and what I’m not going to share.
Trevor:
Yes
Opening the Kimono – how much should I share?
Darren:
Some of my friends on Facebook, you’ll look at it and they have the most amazing life ever, but you meet with them and you actually talk and you find out that they didn’t share all the bad things because this is part of curating what a wonderful life they’re having.
Trevor:
Yeah.
Darren:
Is that a bad thing or a good thing?
Trevor:
Oh, I think over-sharing can be a big issue. I think it’s up to people personally how much they open the kimono on their life, so to speak.
Darren:
I love that. Open the kimono. I have a hairy chest.
Trevor:
I look at bloggers so if I look at the people who I covered in microDOMINATION, there are probably 27 examples and case studies of people that have built global personal brands based on being useful and helpful and creating content and connecting with people around the world.
Some of those that I mention are very open about their personal life and what they’ve done and they take people behind the scenes in quite some detail and others don’t.
But there’s no right or wrong between that, it’s what you’re willing to do but one thing I see again and again and again in the blogosphere – and this is reflective of life generally – the more you take people along for the journey, the more you open up and say these are the lessons learned from some big stuff-ups I’ve made.
Or you illuminate your past and how that affects your thinking today.
Darren:
Where it’s relevant.
Trevor:
Yes, where it’s relevant. If it’s gratuitous, you will turn people off, but where it’s relevant and it’s authentic and there’s a reason, there’s a lesson learned or we can get something out of it, it’s good, it can really work.
Darren:
You know our mutual friend Shawn Callahan at Anecdote. I’ve had a chat with him and he was saying it’s the small stories, it’s the personal stories from your life that help illustrate the point that you’re trying to make that are really engaging with people.
So for me, where I draw the line of what I want to share about me personally, is where a personal story actually helps to illustrate and engage people in the point I’m trying to make.
But I don’t share things gratuitously just because I think I’m that important. And I think that it’s a personal thing and I’d be interested in your viewpoint. That for me is the balance between being narcissistic and building a personal brand.
Personal, professional and private
Trevor:
Oh, I think so. And there are three areas. Mari Smith who’s a blogger and a Facebook expert, she uses the words personal, professional and private. Your personal and professional lives are intertwined whether you like it or not. There is no professional you or personal you any more because business is personal.
But there is a private and the private is the lock down, this is not what I share. I think, we’re becoming more accustomed to showing a little bit of ourselves but if you wanted to build a personal brand, you want to build visibility and a reputation and be recognised, then you’ve got to show a bit of your personality because that will make you unique.
Otherwise you become a drone, and we don’t want to do business with drones and we’re not interested in interviewing drones and reading about them so that’s where I think it’s interesting to try and find what you’re comfortable with.
So the private is what you lock away. Now some people are on Facebook and they lock Facebook for their friends and family and that’s where they can loosen up a bit so I’m not really talking about that side of things, I’m talking about the more public channels like LinkedIn and….
Darren:
Twitter.
Trevor:
And Twitter and if you are blogging and doing any of those things.
Darren:
So it’s interesting, you said before that some people are really fearful of putting themselves out there because of the fear of alienating people. The tall poppy syndrome, having people against you.
If I Google your name, what am I going to find?
Trevor:
I think that there’s a bit of that and it could be as simple as being on Twitter, it could be publishing content like a blog or on a podcast, being interviewed, speaking on stage. How many people hate that and for a very good reason?
So putting yourself out there can manifest itself in different ways and a lot of it’s very understandable. I mean, a lot of people are shy and they just don’t want to do it and that’s okay but as we get into a very hyper competitive world and people aren’t in jobs forever or you might end up wanting to run your own business or you might be running your own business, again, business is personal and what do we do before we meet someone today?
We check them out, we always check them out.
Darren:
On LinkedIn usually.
Trevor:
Yeah and you can see who’s checked you out.
Darren:
Or Google search them.
Trevor:
Well if I Google your name, what am I going to find? Seriously, what am I going to find?
Darren:
Well if you look far enough down, you’ll find a paedophile that lives in Sheffield in the U.K. So I’m glad that I’ve got enough content online that that’s now at about page twelve because it’s not me, it’s an English Darren Woolley. But we talked about this last time.
Trevor:
I wasn’t expecting that.
You have to stand for something
Darren:
This is something we talked about last time we caught up for a coffee. I have the point of view that you have to be willing to alienate some people. If you’re going to stand for something, then there are going to be some people that stand against you, right?
Whereas I find too many people put themselves out there and try and stand for everything or in many ways, stand for nothing, and then feel like the whole exercise has failed because they get no response.
Trevor:
Yeah, it’s a good point you make and it’s true. It is true and there’s varying degrees of that as well. It’s another reason why business professionals and senior executives probably don’t put themselves out there because sometimes they might not know what they stand for. You don’t think so?
Darren:
No, no, I think that’s really sad.
Trevor:
But flag in the ground stuff that you’re willing to…
Darren:
Stand for and be accounted for.
Trevor:
Stand for. If you’re blogging, and you blog, you know what it’s like, there’s nothing more sobering than pressing ‘publish’ on a blog post. Do you really believe that it’s out there for good? It makes you stop and think. It’s about finding your voice really, isn’t it?
If you’ve started blogging, you won’t find your voice straight away. I look back at my early stuff and it’s a lot different to what it is today and it would’ve been the same with you.
Darren:
And that’s okay.
Trevor:
And that’s part of the evolution.
Darren:
As a human being you evolve, your point of view evolves.
Trevor:
That’s correct.
Darren:
But the thing that it actually does is it creates you as a human being because it’s the same as what people read about you on your blog or read what you Tweet or what you share on LinkedIn.
If it’s banal, if it’s bland, it’s like being on a 14 hour flight to L.A. sitting next to someone who wants to talk about the most boring subject and they only have that one subject to talk about.
Trevor:
Yeah.
Darren:
We do react to people as human beings, even though our relationship is purely online.
Accept that you’re going to alienate some people
Trevor:
There’s a good book by Erica Napoletano called, “The Power of Unpopular” and it is about what you were saying a minute ago, that if you take a position, you’re going to alienate some people, and the stronger the position, probably the more alienation but the more fans you’ll pick up from people who agree with you on that position. Even Apple. There’s a lot of people who hate Apple.
Darren:
Exactly.
Trevor:
Every strong brand, personal or business or non-profit, will have people that don’t agree with them. They don’t have to hate them, I’m not talking about the haters.
Darren:
Haters gonna hate.
Trevor:
Haters gonna hate. I’m talking about people who might not agree with you but at least they hopefully respect you as well for your point of view, but they might disagree.
Darren:
But I think if you polarise, it’s like yin and yang in a way, that if you take a strong position, you may get a smaller group of loyalists, but you’ll also get at the other end, a small, and equal group of detractors.
And from a business point of view, what you want to do is make sure that you get a large group of loyalists even though that comes with a large group of detractors because the loyalists are going to be the ones that are actually going to drive your success.
Trevor:
Yeah, and if you look at someone like Seth Godin who’s probably a perfect example. People who love Seth, love Seth, and there’s a lot of people who dismiss him. I don’t think he’s concerned too much about that given his popularity.
Darren:
And that’s the point.
Trevor:
But he’s staked out his claim, his positioning and I think again, we’re not talking about creating a false persona that’s going to be controversial and we’re going to just do that for the sake of it because that won’t cut it as well. And there’s degrees of being provocative. I mean, you don’t necessarily have to be provocative, you just have to have a stand and a point of view.
Darren:
That’s it. You don’t have to deliberately court controversy. You just have to have a point of view and you said it before, I love that, what are you willing to stand for and be accounted to?
Trevor:
Yeah.
Darren:
As a point of view.
Trevor:
What’s your flag in the ground?
Employees building a career need to brand themselves too
Darren:
Okay, so we’ve been talking about CEOs and people founding businesses and building their own personal brands on a global basis, I’d like to talk now about something much more practical which is building your career for someone that is working their way from company to company.
And the reason I’ll say that is that the number of marketers, very senior marketers – because marketing is quite a volatile profession – who will be in a job and on a personal level, won’t return a phone call or an email for the two or three years that they’re in a job.
Then suddenly when they’re made redundant or choose to leave, they’re calling me straight away and going, “How can I get my next job? Can you help me?” and you’ll look at their social media profile and Trevor, it will be non-existent.
Trevor:
Yep. Well, there’s a couple of things there and it’s not just marketing, but I guess that’s the field we both work in so our exposure to that industry is greater but yes, how many people all of a sudden want to connect with you on LinkedIn and have a coffee and all of those things but they’ve added no value to your life up until that point.
Ultimately, the building blocks of a personal brand are the connections you make, the conversations you have and these conversations today can be public and private or very public. Obviously online, the content you produce, the collaborations you’re involved in, all of those things.
So if they’re things that you’re doing all the time, they’re the building blocks of your brand. You can’t just build a reputation because you’re going to need it in two weeks time because you’re leaving an organisation, you know what I mean? It just doesn’t work that way. It’s the things that you do and the actions you take on a daily basis that will be forming the corner stones and the building blocks of your reputation and brand is reputation.
Darren:
Well, even if they embraced LinkedIn, and the reason I pick on marketing is that you would think that anyone that understands the value that’s created through a brand, should also be able to translate that to the value they can create for their personal brand. But I’ll share with you an example.
This marketer was in a role on a very high profile brand as the CMO for four years. In that time, when they left that role, they had less than 150 connections on LinkedIn. Now I said to them, “How many people have tried to connect with you over that time?” “I don’t know, hundreds,” they said. I said, “Did you accept any of them?” “Oh I was too busy and I didn’t really know anyone”.
Now, that means that apart from their reputation of working in that role, which is largely unavailable to anyone that they didn’t want to talk to, they’re now out in the marketplace and it’s now almost two years and they’re still looking for a role.
Trevor:
Wow.
Darren:
So, I said, “You should’ve done this on the day that you started your new role, you should start building your brand for the next role and the one after that”.
Trevor:
And, I need to take a leaf out of the head of studios in Hollywood, the moment you start looking for a job is day one when you start a new job.
Darren:
Exactly.
Just doing your job is no longer enough.
Trevor:
I don’t think it’s as bad as that in marketing but I think one way in which marketers might be disadvantaged, is when they think brand and marketing, a lot of it’s still push push, push, push, because that’s the way marketing is. It’s not the way marketing is now so personal branding is the same.
You will build your brand by being useful and helpful and relevant to other people. And how can you do that? How can you connect to people, just, if you’re on Twitter and I’m going to say, “What do you mean you’re not on Twitter, of course you’re on Twitter, you have to be on Twitter if you’re in the industry, it’s a platform which is disrupting your industry”.
Just to at least be involved and to see what’s going on and to connect with other influences. Twitter is probably the best for doing that. Connecting people, proactively connecting people, proactively giving recommendations to people, proactively writing articles and adding quotes to online publications and putting your hand up to speak at functions.
If you’re a senior marketer and you’ve got wisdom and you’ve got experience, you’ve got case studies, why not offer yourself up to speak? And even help younger people coming up through their career? All of these things, it’s the combination of all of these things collectively over the journey that tell your story.
Now if you’re not involved, you don’t help, you don’t even create anything on LinkedIn, you’ve got no photo on LinkedIn, all of this tells a story. People say, “Oh, I’ve got a blog”, yeah, but you’ve blogged twice in six months. That tells a story, you’ve run out of ideas, you don’t care about the community in which you’re a part of, all of that.
Darren:
I think what you’re saying, and I agree with this, is that just doing your job is no longer enough.
Trevor:
No.
Darren:
Just doing your job, because this is from an old twentieth century paradigm of, if I do a good job, I’ll get another job. The trouble is, generation X, Y and Z are coming through in a world where they can manipulate and participate in the media, in social media or media, and the whole rise of the celebrity means that they understand the power of that.
So for people in the later parts of their career and what you said a minute ago reminded me, Michel Lawrence who was the ECD at J. Walter Thompson always said to me, “When you’re at the top of your career, be nice to everyone because you’ll see them on the way back down”.
And so the idea of giving back, participating, giving back, is really important I think as a way of thinking about your career. Not just job, job, job, but what’s your legacy? What are you going to be known for? Reputation or personal brand?
Trevor:
Yeah, and the way we work today, some people might end up having a portfolio approach to work, you might change the way you work, the organisation you want to work for might only want you for a project. I mean, it’s becoming like that. Tom Peters and the whole brand You thing has been foreshadowed, how long ago was that? Twenty years or something.
Darren:
More.
Trevor:
More. And I remember putting that on Twitter. I’m just rereading brand You in Fast Company and I can’t believe it’s, however many years ago and quick as a flash he came back and Tweeted back to me and he said, “Do you realise that the first time I talked about the concept was to a group of accountants in London”, you know, so, Tom Peters.
Darren:
Wow.
Trevor:
If anyone says, “I’m too old for social media”, he’s not a spring chicken and his brand is very strong. I think he describes himself as the Red Bull of managing consulting or something.
Darren:
Nice.
Trevor:
It’s fantastic.
Darren:
It’s very visual.
The power of social media connections
Trevor:
Yes. But I’ll just give you some examples. I’ve employed people off Twitter before. One of the best ever employees I’ve ever had, she was from Sydney, she was making connections, she connected with me, added value, helped introduce me to people proactively so we knew each other on Twitter but never knew each other outside of that.
And then one day she said, “Oh, I’m coming to Melbourne to look for a PR job at some point, do you mind pointing me in the direction of anyone that I should be talking to.”
Darren:
But what great proof of someone actually knowing and living the disciplines.
Trevor:
Yes, yes.
Darren:
Like in an interview, “Oh yes, I understand social media”, but if you can go back and she’s actually built a relationship with you before you even employ her and you know her capabilities.
Trevor:
That’s right, and it wasn’t actually right for me to employ her at that time, but by the time she was ready to come down, I was right. And so, it kind of made a lot of sense.
I could watch her in action on Twitter because it’s such a public stream, and how she reads a lot of good information, shares that information, those articles, videos, connects other people with each other, gets involved in conversations.
She was better connected than I, to people in Melbourne. And so that’s what I liked because we’re in the business, we need to have connections. We’re only as good as our networks and our connections and the influence we can have.
Darren:
Well, and people say this glibly, but business is people business.
Trevor:
Yes.
Be open and connect with people you would never get to meet in real life
Darren:
Like all business is now people business. It’s all about relationships. So going back to the people that have said to me, “Oh I only connect to people that I personally know.”
Trevor:
I used to be one of those.
Darren:
I understand it’s a personal choice, except that there is a network of people and connections out there that you haven’t necessarily either worked with or even met face to face. But, you have a connection because you’ve got the same interests. You’ve got the same focus. You’ve got the same ideas or even clashing ideas.
Trevor:
That’s right.
Darren:
This is how you build these relationships.
Trevor:
There are two ways of looking at it. On Twitter – why I love Twitter is it allows you to connect with people who in all likelihood you would never get to meet in real life. Your circles might not intersect. And I’ve made some brilliant friends and connections over the journey locally and overseas through that.
So that’s what Twitter enables you to do. LinkedIn, I was one of those people that I believed in the business card style. I don’t even have a business card any more. But that whole notion of handing over a business card and then I’ll Link In with you and that was the way it goes.
And then, as you speak and you blog and people want to connect with you for different reasons, if there’s a relevance there and everything, I will do it now and I wholeheartedly embrace that and I’ve made some really good connections that way.
If you’re out there doing things, LinkedIn’s got a great blogging platform and every time I’ll put up a blog post it gets views and then people will either follow or connect and I think they’re good things because again, they’re people who are recommending you, they’re following you, they like you, but you might not know them and that’s powerful.
That’s incredibly powerful so to shut yourself off, I’m now converted to be open. You don’t have to be open to absolutely every connection. I mean, you have to have a look at what people are connecting for and are they riding you?
Darren:
You have to look for the scams.
Trevor:
Yes. And are they writing you a note or are they just connecting straight up with the generic invitation. Although sometimes on the LinkedIn app you say I want to connect with someone to write a note and then it just sends it off so you’ve got to have a little bit of a leeway there, but you’ve still got to be circumspect about who you accept.
I think that that’s a good thing but I don’t think you should shut yourself off from the world.
Open up, be open and transparent and meet more people, get more points of view, share more content. Look at other people’s content. If you’re going on LinkedIn, and I talk about having a presence. It’s one thing to be on LinkedIn or Twitter or anything else, and it’s another to actually have a presence.
Darren:
Yes.
Approach your marketing by asking “How can I help the most people?”
Trevor:
A presence means that you’re involved. LinkedIn should be something you’re looking at, sharing, commenting, are you reading good stuff, you want to share that with people. When you share it, there are other people that you know will like that topic.
Darren:
Participate in groups of like-minded people.
Trevor:
Participate in groups, create your own group. There’s so many ways to get involved now and recommend others and share other people’s content and hat-tip them and acknowledge them. You know, so these are good things to do and it’s a habit.
Darren:
Yeah.
Trevor:
It’s a mindset to do and then it’s a habit.
Darren:
Yep.
Trevor:
And then it’s the law of reciprocity. I got that out, I normally stumble over that word, reciprocity.
Darren:
Reciprocity, yep, very important one.
Trevor:
Don’t get me to say it again.
Darren:
One of the seven ways of influencing people.
Trevor:
And it’s true. If you always do it without the expectation of getting anything in return, you do it genuinely and this is how I think brands generally should deal with the marketing today. Give, give, give first.
Darren:
Yeah.
Trevor:
I always give this example and it’s a guy called Brian Goulet and he runs The Goulet Pen Company in America and it’s just grown an amazing, amazing community and he’s not a classically trained marketer at all, he sells pens. He sells fountain pens, ink and paper and he starts off his approach to marketing, “How can I help the most people?”
Darren:
Yep.
Trevor:
Not what I can get out of it.
microDOMINATION the book
Darren:
Trevor, it’s been fantastic. So “microDOMINATION” is in all good bookstores, Amazon and…
Trevor:
Amazon, audio, Kindle.
Darren:
All of them.
Trevor:
Yeah. Audio is good. It’s a classically trained Shakespearean actor I think from England so he has a very beautiful voice.
Darren:
Reading your words.
Trevor:
Reading my words, yes.
Darren:
Well thank you very much, this has been great. I love catching up with you.
Trevor:
Thank you Darren.
Darren:
Pleasure. And so how many followers do you have on Twitter now?