Jorg Dietzel is a Chief Brand Consultant, Lecturer at Singapore Management University and someone who has worked on both sides of the client / agency relationship. He talks about the difference between being on the agency and the advertiser side and how his time as a Senior Regional and Global Marketer has enriched his appreciation of brand and marketing.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing. Today we’re in the Straits Clan Club in Singapore and I’m sitting here with Jorg Dietzel, chief brand consultant, lecturer at SMU, and also someone I’ve known for quite a few years.
Jorg:
Many, many years.
Darren:
I really appreciate you making time, Welcome, Jorg.
Jorg:
Thank you.
Darren:
Thank you for inviting me to the club.
Jorg:
Good to see you again.
Darren:
You’ve only recently returned to Singapore after time in Korea and Germany. What have you been doing?
Jorg:
I had the chance to become a client. And who, working in advertising on the agency side, doesn’t want to be a client for once? You want to be the one who is being presented to rather than the one who is presenting. And who can make decisions, who has the big budget.
So, all my life I’ve been on the agency side, from Germany, to the UK, China, Hong Kong, and then Singapore, which was good and I enjoyed it. And big agencies, DDB, BBDO, Beatty but when my ex-client came 6 years ago and said, ‘do you want to be marketing director in Korea?’ I said, ‘yeah, why not?’
Darren:
Why not? The grass is always greener. When you’re in an agency it always feels like the marketers, your clients have got a much easier life. It’s not true is it?
Jorg:
Not really. They have an easier life as far as having the budget, being able to make decisions is concerned but they are very much part of this hierarchy, especially in a market like Korea and I would think, Japan where you think you can make decisions but you can’t.
There’s always somebody else; your boss, CEO, the MD. Even as the head of marketing, you’re not free.
Darren:
It’s interesting because all of those examples were up the hierarchy. I’ve also spoken to a lot of CMOs that go, ‘and it’s the dealers, distributors, all of that market chain have also got demands and opinions and attitudes that you have to accommodate as well.
Jorg:
It’s on every different level; people that you work with, work for, and also people that are on the same level. The head of sales who comes to your office and stands in your office in the morning and says, ‘my showroom traffic has gone down—do something’ because they think advertising is an immediate plug for their problem.
Which it isn’t because I’m thinking more medium or long-term and he’s very short-term because he’s measured by the numbers every week.
Darren:
The industry is really struggling with this concept of long-term brand value and short-term sales or revenue and a lot of marketers are under a huge amount of pressure to deliver that short-term result but often at the expense of the long-term aren’t they?
Jorg:
Yeah.
Darren:
How do you keep the focus?
Jorg:
I think it depends on where you are. The closer you are to the market the more of a short-term focus you have. In the role after Korea, when I moved to the global headquarters of Audi it was much more long-term. We took one year to do a campaign because there are so many things to think about.
We left the responsibility to move any numbers to the markets and we just make sure that we protect the brand and create materials that would work for the brand and I had to deal with purchasing, and controlling, and legal who wouldn’t allow anything so it took a long time. Therefore, by the nature of our job it was very much a long-term focus.
Darren:
I can imagine one of the reasons this job really appealed was that this was a brand that even when I met you, you were emotionally quite committed to. When we met you were driving an Audi, you loved the cars, the product. In becoming a marketer responsible for that brand, do you think loving the brand is a positive or can it also be a negative?
Jorg:
I’m not sure how it can be a negative. I think it helps but I’m not sure it’s necessary. I have done many campaigns and projects for brands that I didn’t love or understand so well and I really needed to learn a lot and get myself into it.
I remember doing a re-branding for a diapers brand and I had no idea about the different brands on the market, what they can do, and absorbency and backflow—you don’t want to know. But I found out and that’s the promise, the positive thing of working on different brands; the more you know the more you can really appreciate the brand.
You may not love it but you really see what goes into it. You hear from different people who have spent all their lives working with that brand and maybe not love but respect is something that develops within you.
Darren:
You’re not sure how it can be a negative. I’ve had some people tell me the danger is if you completely love the brand you can often not get perspective on things such as weakness or why other people may not. And to be able to be objective in the role of the CMO is really important. What do you think? Or do you think it’s possible to still love it and be objective?
Jorg:
I think so because you are being confronted with all of the evidence and research you do and brand tracking on comparison to your competitor’s brands. So, I think you can and you also need to be open to that because otherwise how can you protect the brand if you close your eyes to potential weaknesses that you as a marketer can somehow solve?
I think it’s very necessary, even a condition; love is only real if you see the full picture and not just the sunny side even in a relationship.
Darren:
Absolutely. And it’s interesting how that example, metaphor does work because you need to accept the weaknesses but by accepting them you also know how to minimise them or defocus those and then amplify the positive things.
Jorg:
That really helped. Obviously, if you had asked me would I have joined BMW, Mercedes or someone completely different? Maybe. I’m not sure but obviously, it helped that I had a relationship with the brand. He was my former client.
Darren:
Yeah but you loved that brand and you still do.
Jorg:
I still do.
Darren:
The reason I’m emphasising this is I think personally when you work with a marketer that is doing a professional job it’s different to working with someone who is passionate about the brands they’re working with. It just gives them an extra level of enthusiasm and energy.
I remember, as a creative working in an agency, as a copywriter, when you’re working with a marketer who is passionate about their brand it rubs off. I think that’s one of the things we have to be careful that we don’t lose; the passion for brands.
Jorg:
I agree. I think it’s important. I think it helps but at the same time, it’s not so much a plus or minus, good or bad but a matter of perspective. It’s a matter of point of view. What’s your point of view because I have met many people in the global headquarters who have never worked on any other brand and all they could think, eat and sleep and dream was the brand so therefore sometimes their perspective was a purely inside perspective.
Darren:
They had no perspective.
Jorg:
You’ve heard that from clients as well; we don’t have competition, we don’t have competitors because we’re different, which is a completely inside out view. Outside in, everybody has competition because people have choices.
To keep that kind of perspective and I think it helps if you come from the outside, an agency or from a different market and to keep that. And someone says, ‘this is the only, the best ever’ and to question that and say, ‘look, I love it, it’s great but maybe others also offer something that’s similar. Let’s be fair and let’s see how we can address that.’
Darren:
I also remember just before you took the job as marketing director at Audi in Korea you published a book on advertising. I think part of this was driven by your experience teaching undergrads advertising; that you couldn’t find a book that actually gave them contemporary, comprehensive knowledge.
Jorg:
Contemporary, comprehensive and that also looked at Asia as a market or a region. When you start teaching, all the representatives from all the big publishing houses come to see you because they want you to use their books. Because if they can convince you, bam, they’ve sold 55 copies because all the students have to have it.
I did that at the beginning. I worked with those big fat American textbooks and then I found after a while that many of the cases they use were of brands that only exist in the US and are not relevant at all to an Asian audience and I didn’t find anything that has an Asian focus without forgetting about the rest of the world.
Darren:
But relevance is important. That must have been a huge job to actually write a book from scratch.
Jorg:
It was O.K because I divided it into different chapters looking at different media channels, how to work with your agency, all of those things but it’s also heavy on case studies. I think I had 10 cases in-depth that have run in Asia covering different channels.
At the time there wasn’t so much online and I think that helps to fill the pages if you describe the cases. This is what you get from the clients and the agencies; they’re very happy to be included, so it wasn’t that bad.
Darren:
That was 7 years ago?
Jorg:
More like 9 years ago.
Darren:
Oh my god, 9 years ago. So, how much has the world of advertising changed in that 9 years? When you look back on the book how much would you have to change now?
Jorg:
60%.
Darren:
That’s significant isn’t it?
Jorg:
Yes, and I notice it not so much because I went through the book again but my teaching materials were based on the book and a few weeks ago when I started the new semester in Singapore and I opened up my old file and thought I can just follow this narrative and I found out I couldn’t.
Because it’s full of things that are not so relevant anymore and other things are missing; the whole how to work with influencers, social media, it’s all missing. And the realisation was I have to create new materials but the realisation was also the world of advertising has moved on but many advertisers and their agencies haven’t noticed.
Darren:
Interesting—so what do you mean by that?
Jorg:
In the past 2 years when we created global campaigns with world class agencies from the headquarters, which were then hopefully used by the markets to launch new products and reposition the brand, the way we worked with our big full-service agencies and the way they created something was like mad man times.
They think in TV commercials—that’s the first thing they come up with. We may not even have TV as a channel. TV may not even be relevant if we’re doing a campaign for Audi A1, which is aimed at millennials or the mid 20s—they don’t watch TV.
If anything they stream some Netflix without any ads in it but the way they were thinking; it was a film and then maybe some print ads and then maybe we need to do something digital—yeah, let’s put the film on Facebook.
And we’re like, ‘no, it doesn’t work like that’. It cannot work like that. So, they work in silos, we work in silos because on the client side somebody did PR, somebody did digital, somebody did above the line, somebody did events, somebody did below the line so it’s all fragmented.
And because the global full-service agencies, award winning everything, great creative potential cannot do it or don’t do it or are not interested, everybody goes to specialised agencies like social, Razorfish, and say, ‘o.k. you do the social part’.
So, all of a sudden you have 2 campaigns and it’s really frustrating from a client point of view to organise that because it doesn’t work together. You do a photo shoot for a print campaign in Los Angeles because you need the light—that still happens—and you have a photographer for print who does 5 motifs for $55,000 and then you have a separate photographer for online or social who does 50 motifs for $5,000 and they’re fighting ‘who can have the car now’.
Darren:
And even more complex; you end up with 3 or 4 agencies producing content and then you’ve got the next part, the paid media, which is being paid and bought by a separate company again. And they’ve probably been going off and doing their media plan almost in isolation from the content you’re producing.
The other part is, where is owned media in all of this? The media agencies love focusing on paid media but very few of them actually think about the owned media. And you’ve got the company doing the social, your shared and earned media. It’s really quite fragmented; that must be a huge challenge when you’re in that role as a marketer?
Jorg:
It is. It’s very much fragmented in the people you’re dealing with to execute your idea, your vision into the different channels. That’s one thing and the other thing is you’re fighting against some myths because many of the decision makers—the boss of the boss, the global head of marketing—they are of a certain age.
So, they still believe the world is like it was, not 10 years ago, but maybe 5 years ago. As far as social is concerned they think if it’s good enough it will go viral automatically. So their brief to me would be ‘make me a viral’. And it’s all going to be organic and they refuse to listen and refuse to believe that that doesn’t work anymore. Very few cases where you don’t have to seed, push something that you’ve put online because there is just too much stuff. And you need to cut through and give it the initial push at least or write some kind of elevator because you link up with a movie, link up with a celebrity.
Darren:
I notice you’re calling yourself a chief brand consultant and one of the things you’ve always been focused on is brand. Brand is actually part of marketing, and advertising is just a subset of marketing. You said advertising has changed around 60% since you wrote the book but has brand and marketing changed also by that amount or is it still fundamentally the same?
Jorg:
It is still fundamentally the same. Some channels, obviously, have changed and the way you reach people and talk to people, I think has become a little bit more difficult and fragmented. But the way you set up the brand, the requirements; that it has to be relevant to your target audience, that you need to be differentiated from what the competition does in order to give people a reason to go with you, that you need to be consistent across all your touch points and then you come to communication—I think that’s something that fundamentally hasn’t changed.
The change is coming in at the tail end of the whole process, which is how you communicate the brand. But how you set it up is pretty much similar. One disagreement about your introduction to this part of the conversation where you said branding is part of marketing.
I think it’s much more because it’s part of the whole organisation; it’s part of HR because who are the people you hire and how do you enable them to reflect the brand and be little brand ambassadors? How does finance chase the people who owe you money? If you have a position as the friendly brand and send nasty letters, that’s also a disconnect. So, it’s pretty much everything you do. That’s why it should be with the CFO and CEO rather than just the marketing director.
Darren:
So, you’re of the group that believes the CEO is the ultimate chief brand officer.
Jorg:
Yes. Because that’s the first point where it all comes together. If it’s just with me and marketing and no one else cares so much or is not aware of it, then I have a much harder life because there are some things that touch point the brand that I don’t control.
Darren:
Brand is every experience someone has with that brand isn’t it? And yet we talk about the customer experience and there are CEOs who will say that has to be handled by marketing but as you know marketing doesn’t have the ability to influence all those touch points. So how does the conundrum or misalignment get resolved?
Jorg:
I think the only way is if more and more CEOs understand that it needs to be me. It somehow needs to be in the organisational matrix, it needs to be something I’m involved in. Recently, we had a case here where a brand had a big problem and they had a fried little lizard in their chips—it happens—a product problem.
So, somebody asked me what do you do if that happens to your brand? That also hasn’t fundamentally changed; rule number one unsurprisingly, don’t lie. Don’t try and hide the truth, which many do, but just come out and say, ‘it happened, sorry about this, we’re going to change the way we do things to prevent it’.
In that conversation, on some local radio station, they also said, ‘how much money would you put aside or budget for branding under marketing?’ And I can’t answer that because it’s more than that, it needs to be on a higher level.
Darren:
Yet there are a lot of brands and marketers who will have in their budget brand communications and then acquisitions communications and then retention communications because they’re taking a very communications focus and this is probably leading to the big criticism we hear especially from the C-Suite, CEOs, that marketing has become more and more about communications and less and less about business building. Do you think that’s fair?
Jorg:
I think it is but I think it’s also partly their own fault because of the way they organise themselves is narrowing the remit that marketing has. I fought for 2 years in Korea to include product and price in marketing because it was under sales.
I talked to my CEO and showed him other cases from other companies. Eventually those 3 or 4 people who did product and price came over to my side. And I needed to have that because obviously that influences the brand; how do you price yourself into the market and what kind of product do you bring into the market?
Do you just bring the product that is easy to sell in grey, black, and white, and silver? Or do you also bring in a yellow TT, which stands in the showroom, is very hard to sell but it makes a statement for the brand?
Darren:
It’s interesting that tension between marketing and sales because sales people are almost totally incentivised on volume whereas marketers should be incentivised on margin. Because, ultimately, the skill of marketing is to have people willing to pay more for the same product or service because they perceive the value.
Jorg:
Exactly.
Darren:
Whereas how many times have you seen sales people discount price, give away margin, to hit their volume?
Jorg:
They don’t care. It was this long discussion about how much discount do you give? Even their KPIs should be a mixed calculation of both and not just how much do they sell? Because then the price doesn’t matter but if they discount too much it really hurts my brand.
Then I need to reinvest in something, work with some celebrity to try and push up the image and so if we could somehow find some common ground that would help.
Darren:
Again, that sits with the CEO doesn’t it? Because ultimately, the CEO and CFO will be the ones who set the KPIs, the performance metrics for the organisation. If they get that wrong you’ll end up with people working almost against each other.
Jorg:
Exactly.
Darren:
Another area where you often see tension, and it’s become obvious to me in the last 6 months is corporate affairs or corporate strategy and marketing strategy. The reason for the tension is corporate affairs or corporate strategy is about minimising risk, maintaining the status quo, keeping things very safe and secure, whereas marketing is often about pushing you, drawing attention, getting awareness, getting people to engage and the two can almost be seen as working against each other.
Have you ever had that situation or seen that situation?
Jorg:
Not so much with corporate affairs but maybe with corporate affairs in the expression of PR. They’re obviously closely related and in the market, PR was part of marketing, which made great sense because there are lots of synergies to be had.
If I know where my advertising budget goes it gives me a totally different platform to talk to journalists maybe from the publication. It really helps to work hand in hand and create those synergies.
On the global level we were very separate. Marketing and PR was completely separate and the whole corporate affairs department was under PR so it made our life very hard. They made some decisions about launches, about secrecy, what can be shown, what cannot be shown, that had no direct relationship with what we did in the campaign.
And in the end, from an outside view, the consumer, they don’t differentiate, they don’t know where this message comes from. They see a picture, they see a message in a magazine, they see an ad; they don’t differentiate, ‘oh that comes from this department and that comes from that department’. It’s just the brand talking.
So, in order not to confuse people but rather to create some synergies it would make great sense if this was in one hand. But unfortunately with many, many marketers it isn’t.
Darren:
Because a lot of corporate PR is about talking to shareholders, investors and the like and it’s the CEO who is the ultimate brand champion or custodian. They’ll often have very different messages for investors and shareholders or government than the consumer. How do you strike that balance?
Jorg:
I think it’s really hard. It comes back to understanding that nothing works in complete segmentation anymore.
Darren:
It did once though didn’t it?
Jorg:
It did, it did per target group, per market, so you didn’t have to have alignment between markets because there was no internet. And yes, a few people traveled and they saw a different billboard in Bilbao than they saw in London but it didn’t matter.
Now, everything is opened up. Everybody sees everything and that’s why the need to have some kind of level of consistency is much, much greater, and it’s about people in power realising that. Understanding that o.k. maybe there is a brand strategy department that sets the parameters that are then cascaded down.
Darren:
It should be sitting in that CEO office with corporate affairs talking about what the shareholders and government needs and what consumers need as far as the brand. How do we actually position this organisation and its brands?
Audi is a branded house isn’t it? It’s a brand that’s also the company.
Jorg:
Yes.
Darren:
What about the complexity that happens when you’ve got a house of brands; the PNGs, the Mondelez, the Unilever’s, where you’ve got these master holding companies and then infinite numbers of brands underneath? Where do you think the role of brand purpose comes in because I can see purpose works very well when you’ve got a branded house because the organisation has a purpose and that can be reflected if relevant in the communication.
But we’re seeing lots of marketers in a house of brands trying to do this brand purpose and they often end up with a different purpose for each brand.
Jorg:
There are different ways of looking at it. To me it’s very straightforward. I think many of those umbrella brands or mother brands that are behind many of those brands, to really build them up as a brand is often a kind of vanity project for the global CEO because you can’t buy that. You cannot buy a Unilever.
Darren:
No, but you can buy shares in Unilever.
Jorg:
Yes, different story, different target group. But from a consumer branding point of view! They still try because they want to see ‘oh, this is also a brand and if it’s Unilever on the detergent and not PNG, people think it’s better.
I think it’s a lot of wasted time. I would really concentrate on the brands that you can buy in the shop, regardless of where they come from; how are they different?
Darren:
I’ve had this conversation with corporate strategy and they say the reason for outing a Unilever company or a PNG or a Mondelez company is because the consumer you’re selling or promoting the brand to may also be the shareholder or investor and so they see it as a missed opportunity. But do you think it also becomes just another thing that complicates what is already a difficult communication?
Jorg:
Yes. If you’re an investor obviously you care but you get your information from other sources, you read the annual report but for the normal consumer who is just using the products they don’t care. They don’t know.
You ask them, who makes Dash and who makes Lenore, most of the people would have no idea.
Darren:
Don’t care, as long as the product works and I like it.
Jorg:
Exactly. I think it’s a bit of a red herring to go into that and build brands on top of brands and I don’t think it’s necessary. I think it’s vanity.
Darren:
What do you think of brands having a larger purpose than just doing what they do?
Jorg:
Interesting question. Obviously, it’s something that is currently discussed a lot and I have the impression, especially with younger target groups, there is a demand for that. People are asking that question; what do you stand for? What’s your purpose? Are you just here to sell me a product? O.k. if that’s your purpose I will judge you on how good your product is, how sustainable or is there anything more behind it?
I think it’s important to have it but it’s also tricky because it can completely backfire and not be credible. And people will think you’re just pretending you care to sell me something. Yesterday, we were looking at a commercial in my class and a student presented a drink driving campaign ‘don’t drink and drive’ by Budweiser.
So, we were discussing why do they do that. And the students were so cute because they were all ‘oh, because they care, so many people die’ and I said, ‘could it also have something to do with the fact that the opportunities for an alcohol brand to advertise are very, very restricted? You are not allowed to show the group of friends having fun drinking Bud anymore in most markets so they have to find other ways to get the brand out there to keep the awareness up.
And the students were, ‘oh, we hadn’t really thought of it’. So they were giving them a lot of leeway to pursue the value chain.
Darren:
Maybe the problem is after all the years we’ve just become cynical.
Jorg:
Maybe.
Darren:
It’s still positive.
Jorg:
I think you need to and it’s possible and it can even be a differentiator. For example, at Audi a few years ago, we had those 3 brand pillars; sporty, sophisticated, and progressive. You need to make a decision, what are you pushing?
And sporty is important—we have motor racing and everything else but it’s not a differentiator because BMW is seen as more sporty. So, you can’t take that away from them. It would be very expensive to do that.
Sophisticated, yes, it is sophisticated—many stitches in the leather seats of the A8 but Mercedes Benz is seen as more sophisticated in many parts of the world. So, progressive. Nobody owns progressive. So Vorsprung Durch Technik expresses a little bit that kind of advancement so we thought we would push that but that has so many ways you can communicate it.
It has to do with technology, the way you do things, piloted driving, artificial intelligence and all of that, and it also has to do with an attitude of value as the company.
Darren:
So it could be socially progressive?
Jorg:
It is, and that’s why a few markets picked up on that. The Americans had this big campaign with a super bowl commercial for women and same pay for the same work, and they were very closely scrutinised after that ran and people asked, ‘how many female board directors do you have?’
Darren:
That’s the point isn’t it? If you go down the path of social purpose as a brand you need to have absolute authenticity because you have to live the promise. And if you don’t you quickly get found out. We saw it with Gillette and around the same time, Nike but Nike did it so much better.
When you held Nike up to scrutiny they had a long history of supporting the underdog or the person who was not the mainstream of society, whereas Gillette, for years and years they’ve told us the ‘best a man can get’, now suddenly ‘toxic masculinity’ is a bad thing so maybe it’s not the best a man can get.
Jorg:
And then they go against it and that also backfires because nobody believes it. It’s a risk and you have to get it right. About a year ago, after a presentation for a car launch, the agency said to me, ‘there’s one more thing (in Steve Job’s fashion)’ and they showed me a script for a film that had to do with Saudi Arabian women being allowed to drive on the 24th of June last year.
I loved it. I showed it to a few people. They were not sure. They loved the script but what if it backfires? So, I ran it by my colleagues in Dubai and Riyadh and they said, ‘we love it’.
It was about opening doors—he’s opening doors for her as they leave the house and then she opens the passenger door and says, ‘now you sit down’ and she gets into the driver’s seat and ‘it’s time for more open doors. Audi welcomes the women of Saudi Arabia to the driver’s seat’.
We had to make really sure that everything is authentic and correct so we flew in some people from Saudi Arabia to make sure that everything is correct because if you get a little thing wrong, people will find it and tell you off.
It was a risk but it met with so much positive sentiment so I think it pays off if there’s some connection to the brand and it’s believable.
Darren:
So, you’re back in Singapore after working in a big corporate head office job and you’re now doing your chief brand consultancy. You were a brand consultant here, what’s different this time around? How has that experience of the last 6 years changed your approach to brand consultancy and being a chief brand consultant?
Jorg:
I think I have a better understanding of the opportunities and limitations that clients have. Because before you work on the agency side you think the client is a sort of demigod and they can do everything and they have the budget. Why don’t they buy this idea and make it happen?
Now, I understand what it’s like and that there are also some limitations. There are other stakeholders and their budgets may be limited and I think that really helps having been on both sides of the equation, to go in as a client and to present things in a way that you know would fit into the way they work. And not come up with something completely crazy because you can or you want to win an award or some Effie but understand that there are limitations and work within them and make things happen.
That really works and it also makes me question some of the things we do as in how do we develop campaigns, digital—yes or no, what comes first and everything? And more importantly, how do we even pitch? To me we’re getting it wrong on every single aspect because in advertising we do everything before the pitch, show everything, the whole campaign and then the client may say ‘no’. They may steal the idea.
Darren:
You give everything away.
Jorg:
Yeah. And in branding we show nothing because everything is based on research and we don’t do the research before we win the pitch so we just show a structure. Everybody else is showing the same structure more or less. So, how can they decide?
Darren:
Well, they choose the people they feel are closest aligned to their expectations and chemistry.
Jorg:
What’s their skillset?
Darren:
In actual fact, the pitches we’ve run; chemistry is the underlying, and pitch, in a way, is just an opportunity to test out the chemistry. That’s basically what’s happening in the pitch process.
Jorg:
It’s funny, it’s so common-sensical but at the same time when I do this exercise with my students who will all be marketers in a year’s time (because they’re in the final year they will join Unilever or whoever), when you choose your agency what are you looking at?
And they come up with everything—all correct points; conflict, location, size, cost, whatever they’ve done before, industry experience or maybe you don’t want industry experience. But the most important thing is missing: the people (I have to tell them).
Make sure you like and respect the people that are in front of you and look at the people who are going to be there after the pitch, not the ones who are flying back to London or Hong Kong. The people who you’re going to see a lot of; you better like them and respect them, and you better give them that space to have a partnership with you.
Darren:
Jorg, deep thoughts. It’s been an absolute joy catching up.
Jorg:
Great fun.
Darren:
But one last question before I go. If you couldn’t drive an Audi ever again what car would you drive?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley. Find all the episodes here