Andrea Edwards is The Digital Conversationalist, helping professionals and businesses tell better stories and embracing social media leadership. She talks about the power of embracing the social more than the media in social media and the importance of being authentic in engaging with people. But also how wrong it can go when used in a deceitful and manipulative way.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing. And we’re in Singapore, in a bar somewhere near Marina Bay Sands, and I’m sitting down with Andrea Edwards who is also known as the digital conversationalist. Welcome to the bar here in Singapore, Andrea.
Andrea:
Thank you very much; I suppose we should say, ‘cheers’.
Darren:
Cheers to you too. Thanks for joining us.
Andrea:
Thanks for asking me.
Darren:
Very fine Fosters. I can’t believe they’re serving Fosters.
Andrea:
You’ve got no class.
Darren:
That’s true. The digital conversationalist; we hear a lot of people talking about how social media is an opportunity to be social. Is that what the digital conversationalist is all about?
Andrea:
The digital conversationalist answers two things. The first thing is when I first launched it, nearly 3 years ago now, I saw a gap that nobody was addressing. My background is very much in the content marketing space and when I was working at Microsoft (just across the road—you can see the logo on the building) they started really developing some beautiful content—the Microsoft Story Lab, and then Satya Nadella came in and there was a really nice content and visual campaign around him.
But the content wasn’t going any further—it’s changed now but at the time the employees weren’t grabbing it, using it, and sharing it, and to me (I was in the comms team) that’s really missed.
Darren:
You need that engagement don’t you?
Andrea:
Absolutely. If your employees don’t care who’s going to care?
Darren:
Exactly.
Andrea:
Then I went to a content agency, Novus, and again they were producing this beautiful content and then sending it to the clients but the content wasn’t successful. I’m like, we’ve got to get the employees engaged here, not just in sharing the content, because you don’t want employees out there just sharing content and being sycophants.
Darren:
Here’s what the boss told us to share.
Andrea:
Exactly. You want them to create their own content and have their own message but also help the company be successful with their content because unless you achieve that you can’t succeed with content marketing. I really believe in content marketing because it completely flips everything on its head and so much of the conversation around content is not right.
Darren:
I think you’re absolutely right in that content marketing has been done a disservice.
Andrea:
I think so.
Darren:
First of all one of the things that really irks me is the number of agencies that are doing advertising and trying to pass it off as content. And secondly, I was at ProcureCon, which is a conference in London but also in the States and I was talking about content marketing and a guy from a major brewer said to me, ‘no one’s interested in hearing about how we make beer’ and so they think that content marketing is all about telling people about how you do your job.
Andrea:
Beer is a great example. I worked for Guinness for a while and I launched a porter ale. You know what porter ale is? It used to be the beer of the poor people in London, right? I can assure you when you’re around the Guinness brand everyone wants to know the story.
They love the story of Guinness, of beer, the history of the story of beer. There’s a book on beer. Have you ever read that book? That’s content marketing, right? It’s talking about the entire experience and everything that comes around beer and I just think so many people don’t get what it’s about.
Technology companies—what’s their job in content marketing? It’s to help the companies, customers, wherever they are right now, move forward with technology. I’ve done some sessions where 5 to 10 years ago all the technology companies were talking about cloud computing in all of their marketing right?
Now they’re talking about artificial intelligence, blockchain, all these other topics. And I’ll say to them, ‘where is your customer on the cloud progression?’. Because it doesn’t matter, you can’t achieve anything unless your company is in the cloud. So you can’t have artificial intelligence, blockchain, you can’t do great data, you’ve got to be in the cloud.
But basically what the sales guys were telling me is the customers were just moving onto the cloud at that point but the company is marketing into the future and you’ve got to do both. Market into the future but talk to the customer where they are now and help them overcome their challenge.
That’s all it is. It’s not that bloody complicated but it’s not advertising. And it’s not PR. It’s a different mindset about serving the customer with information or entertainment.
Darren:
When we embraced content or inbound marketing, one of the best examples, best stories I heard was in North Carolina; there was a guy who made pools and spas. All he did was start writing these blogs answering all the questions that customers were asking and his business just went crazy.
People would be Googling ‘I want to put in a pool or spa and I’ve got this question’ and of course, his blog would come up. There was no one answering those questions.
Andrea:
But did you hear one of the best things about him was he also talked about the competition and pricing so his SEO went up. So, even when you were looking for a competitive product he would come up higher because he had content.
Darren:
I embraced that. He actually put a list of all his competitors and he didn’t make any judgement; he said I’m really busy I may not be able to get to your job for 12 months but here’s a whole lot of other people you could talk to.
I did the same thing. I literally found all my competitors around the world and copied a paragraph out of their website because I didn’t want to be seen making a judgement about them and I put it up there and a link to their website. It’s amazing because procurement people all the time say to me, ‘we really want to work with you but can you nominate two other people so we can run a competitive tender?’.
I say, ‘I won’t nominate them but here’s a blog post you might be interested in’.
Andrea:
Nice. I like the strategy. The pool guy is one of the great early examples because he was also doing it during a recession. It was the 2008 crash when he started and he ended up being a multimillionaire at a time when the entire pool industry, basically everyone was going out of business and he did it through content.
Darren:
So, Andrea, why do people get it so wrong? Is it this incredible sense of navel gazing that when we talk about content they think I’ve got to talk about myself?
Andrea:
Yeah. I’ve worked with a lot of the big tech companies, a lot of different industries but the internal view of business is so internal. They’re looking at their KPIs, those boards with the green, red, orange dots right? And everyone is so internally focused they’re not paying attention outside.
I remember a great conversation with one of the heads in the comms team at Microsoft and we were talking about how Microsoft missed the internet. Do you remember that? It was a big moment.
Darren:
Bill Gates basically said it wasn’t going to be much of an implication.
Andrea:
I’ve worked with a lot of these big companies, not just Microsoft, the bigger they get, the more global they get, I always say it’s like these huge boulders rolling slowly down a hill. There’s always a trend, a distraction, but to be a successful company you’ve got to be focused, you’ve got to stay aligned with the future you’ve got for yourself.
You’ve got to pay attention but not too much attention or you get distracted from the goal but the problem is your getting moss as your ball goes down the hill but you’re missing because you’re not paying attention outside, you’re not paying attention to the customer because everyone is too busy talking to each other, competing with each other.
To me that’s the thing and that’s where social media is so amazing because it forces people to go out because you have to read the industry, other people’s points of view. When you get people really engaging on social media, reading loads of stuff, reading competitive stuff, industry stuff, what the analysts are writing, the big consulting companies are writing, you get different perspectives.
You hear what your friends are saying, what other professionals, your peers are saying. That’s when you really start to go these are the trends that are actually worth paying attention to versus being a distraction that companies like Microsoft missed when the internet came out.
Darren:
But I’m not sure that that model still applies today. This idea of setting your strategic direction for the next 5 years, roll down the hill and just go with it and don’t be too distracted because the world is infinitely more complex.
Secondly, I wish I had a dollar for every CEO who has stood up at the shareholder’s meeting and said, ‘we’re going to be more customer-centric’. How can you be more customer-centric when you’ve already decided what the customer wants and you don’t give a rat’s arse about whether their opinion has changed or their needs have changed?
Andrea:
I don’t think it’s been relevant since the 90’s, since the internet came on, it hasn’t been relevant to set that long-term goal although when you look at the Japanese companies, they’ve got 30-year visions for the business.
Darren:
Yeah, you can have a long-term view but you need to be constantly.
Andrea:
Pivoting.
Darren:
The metaphor I use for my clients is sailing. You know where you’re heading but when the wind shifts you’ve got to adjust the sheets, the sails to actually get the lift. And when you get knocked by the market, the shift changes, you’ve got to go about and quickly pivot so that you still remain relevant to where the market is.
Andrea:
I think there’s another point. Everyone’s talking a good game on agility, they’re talking about it with technology but I don’t think that people are naturally very agile and it doesn’t matter how agile a technology can allow you to be, the ability to move quick, and I think, customer-centricity as a concept, I don’t think most people are very good at it.
You look at the way most people are on social media, creating their own content, their perspective that they want to get out in the world, it’s not a perspective that meets a need in the world. Content marketing is about fundamentally meeting a need of your customer. But actually most people don’t start from that point.
I’ve sat down with people and they’re like but it doesn’t talk about our company. It doesn’t need to talk about your company—that’s not the point.
Darren:
I’ve shared this many times before but I have a bank. I don’t know why I’m with them but they have given me three customer ID numbers because I’m a business person, an investor, and I’m a person so they’ve given me three numbers.
That must make it incredibly difficult for you to interact with me as a person because I’m three people apparently. I’m three times who I am.
Andrea:
Try and be a person who has lived in 5 different countries, moved internationally like 8, 9 times, and try and deal with a bank and get any credit because you don’t exist. Rather than look at you as an opportunity, someone who’s got the guts to go out there. If I went back to Australia now I couldn’t get a credit card, a loan.
Darren:
Starting from zero.
Andrea:
Absolutely. And I have no credit rating. The banks to me, it’s like the Telco’s—they are so local. They are not international. They can build these international ideas. Like HSBC, American Express, they’re all international but you’re still judged locally. Technology has allowed this to happen. And they still haven’t changed.
Darren:
The opportunity from a technology point of view is to actually allow you to be identified as an individual and yet there are counter forces saying, ‘don’t allow that to happen’ because of the lack of privacy and personal security around being identified that way.
Andrea:
I think the whole privacy/ security thing—a lot of people complain about data and what companies can do with it and yet they’ll fill out a stupid survey like what colour should you wear today on Facebook and they’ll give away more data about themselves than if they applied for a credit card loan. And the whole Cambridge Analytica scandal – I’m like when are we going to start taking responsibility for ourselves and how we participate?
Darren:
I agree but there is a lack of regulation. I think GDPR is trying to bring that but it’s pretty ham-fisted.
Andrea:
How can old people in suits regulate an industry and a type of person? You look at my children (11 & 12), the millennial generation or gen Z who are now in the workforce—people who are not in their age group are trying to put laws and regulations on top of them but they don’t understand what technology is to them.
I watch people criticising behaviour on social media but they’re not on it themselves so how can you criticise it? If you want to understand today’s customer you’ve got to be where they are participating otherwise you just have no relevance anymore.
Darren:
I think there is a quid pro quo, which is if I give you something of me i.e. information about me, I expect you to use that to make my life better.
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Darren:
That’s the transaction. If I give you information about my needs, wants, desires, who I am, then you should use that to offer and sell me things that I actually want.
Andrea:
Versus what’s happening at the moment, and if anyone of us goes to our inbox on LinkedIn and you’ve got 100 annoying sales people pitching you a product that’s not even relevant to you and I sometimes reply to them, ‘if you looked at my LinkedIn profile, which I have invested in quite heavily and there’s a lot of information including blogs, regular content that I’m providing, you can actually work out who I am, what I care about and what I don’t care about. And you’ll understand that what you’re selling me is completely irrelevant so piss off. Stop wasting my time.’
Darren:
The thing that pisses me off is that they all think I’m an advertising agency. They’re all offering me agency services—disconnect. It’s a numbers game.
Andrea:
No, it’s cold calling on social media. The sales person has never had more information than they have today. And they’re lazy and they’re not going to get my time. They don’t deserve it. You want to invest in me, talk to me, share my content, I’ll spend time with you when you pitch me but you’ve got to put some effort in first.
This lazy cold-calling on social media, I want to punch them in the face.
Darren:
So, I get the sense in the term social and media you’re much more focused on social than you are media?
Andrea:
Absolutely.
Darren:
Why?
Andrea:
Because that’s what it’s all about and it’s an opportunity. There are a lot of people outsourcing their social presence especially in LinkedIn, professional social presence. It really frustrates me because the power, the magic of social media is in the participation.
I build relationships. I met someone last night I’d never met before. She knew everything about me because she’s been following me on LinkedIn for 5 years. We finally got to meet each other. And I have built relationships and it’s years later before I meet the people live.
That’s the opportunity of social media; it’s to build relationships. And you can’t learn how to do it unless you’re on social media, actively participating, talking to people, sharing ideas, answering questions, just participating. It is the number one thing that people don’t do.
I call it the megaphone approach—pumping information out but they’re not responding to people, talking to them. They’re not responding to other people who are putting out good information that might be aligned to what they care about. It’s just bloody noise.
Darren:
It’s interesting you say that because some of the big names in the industry and even just generally; celebrities on Instagram or LinkedIn or whatever, will share something and you’ll see they respond to the first 4 or 5 comments and then nothing. And suddenly, there are 1,000 comments that have no interaction whatsoever.
Andrea:
One of my favourite social media people at the moment is The Rock. Not only is he incredibly sexy but Dwayne Johnson is a good man. He honours women, his wife, his daughters, his colleagues, the people who are on the movie sets with him. Go and have a look at him, especially on Instagram, also on Facebook—he’s doing a beautiful job.
He talks as much as he can but his fan base is so huge and he’s so well regarded it’s impossible for him to do too much but he’s really putting in the effort as much as he can. I see people copying Bill Gates on LinkedIn—it’s not relevant. You just look like an idiot.
But then Jeff Weiner at LinkedIn, he does a really good job of interacting especially with his employees. If they copy him he’ll respond. So, it’s just about putting in a little bit of effort. But they can’t keep up with everything. I’m definitely at the overwhelm point and I’m not any of those people.
Darren:
It is like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hydrant isn’t it?
Andrea:
Yes, sometimes it feels like that.
Darren:
One of the things I know you’re really passionate about is people being incredibly authentic and having integrity online. But how much do you think the ability to curate your best self can actually undermine that?
Andrea:
I don’t think you should curate your best self. I think you should be yourself. I’m not pretending to be anything that I’m not. I believe your entire social media presence blends together so if on Facebook, my mates, we’re having a chat but if I put up a family photo of the kids, which I did when we were in Crabbia a couple of weeks ago, I put ‘please note, 20 minutes ago we were ripping each other’s faces off’ before we got this beautiful family photo and we were all smiling on the beach.
People really appreciate that. I get all these private messages—that photo was an example—really appreciate you saying that because it’s the truth.
Darren:
That’s the reality of your existence.
Andrea:
It’s not all good, or all great. Professionally, I’m doing more stuff around the environment—I don’t want people to think I’m nuts about it but at the same time I’m at the point where I think we built the wrong world. The world of business is wrong. What we value is wrong.
Donald Trump is here because the Kardashians were here before that and Paris Hilton before that. We’ve built this world where we’re honouring shallowness and people think they need to go out there and follow that. I’m never going to do that—warts and all.
Darren:
O.k., let me be authentic.
Andrea:
Are you ever not?
Darren:
On LinkedIn, it drives me crazy those people that seem to have swallowed some sort of positive affirmation. That no matter what’s going on in your life you just need to do this and everything will turn out alright. How do you feel about that?
Andrea:
There are times when you get one of those positive affirmations or famous person quotes come through and you’re having a really bad day and it makes you want to punch that person in the face. I personally wouldn’t share that stuff because I know when I’m in the wrong place it’s the wrong thing to see and it makes me feel bad towards the person sharing it.
If you talk to people who are deeply spiritual or philosophical or positive people, they don’t always allow you the space to be negative and sometimes you’ve just got to go ‘rrrr’ about life because life can be really shit sometimes. We’ve got to have space for that too.
But there’s no one more open to the idea that whatever you set your heart on you can achieve, the abundance philosophy—I’m fully embracing it. But at the same time, life isn’t straight. It’s never been straight.
Darren:
One of my favourite memes is that line to success and then the reality is it’s up and down and all over the place. Nothing ever goes as smoothly as you think it will.
Andrea:
I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing for more than a decade. I’ve written more than 1,000 blogs. I’ve had all sorts of issues with one of my kids. We’ve had to move countries many times. All sorts of stuff is going on and people talk to me about my life and it’s really interesting because I’m not attempting to portray anything other than my truth, the truth.
Darren:
Your existence, your experience.
Andrea:
And I’m sharing it all and I’ve always shared it all—I’m a communicator and I love it. I’ve got grandparents in England and Australia, I’ve got great friends living in all these different countries—I love it. I love communication that’s why I love social media because I get to stay in touch with all these incredible people but I’m not pretending.
Anyone who knows me, knows my full journey, knows there have been a lot of really, really hard years but I find it really interesting how people interpret what I put up on social media and what they see as my success. I’m like guys, is that what you see? Wow. I’m not even attempting to portray it—this is just it.
If you actually go back through the decade of my social media presence there are a lot of shitty times in the mix.
Darren:
We’ve all had those.
Andrea:
We have. And if I was hiring someone I wouldn’t hire someone that didn’t have shitty years behind them. Would you?
Darren:
No. You’ve got to have the negative so you can build the positive. I get a lot of people saying to me ‘I don’t know how you do it. What about all the trolls, the negativity?’
Andrea:
And you’re a man. You have no idea what it’s like to be a woman.
Darren:
I’m not just a man; I’m white. I’m male and I’m middle aged. I am 3 star entitled.
Andrea:
I’m at the point I feel sorry for the white boys because you guys are having a bit of a rough time.
Darren:
Boo hoo hoo.
Andrea:
At the same time I’m kind of not because the warning signals have been out there for a while. Wake up boys.
Darren:
Yes, I get negative responses to things but I am privileged enough that I go you must be an idiot. How do you deal with it?
Andrea:
I’ve had all sorts of stuff. I’ve had real hate because I’ve got another blog which is much more about politics, equality, feminism, the challenges we’ve faced with my kid. One blog, when one of my sons was 4 or 5, we were talking about careers or something at school and I asked him what do you think a woman can be? ‘We’ll, they can only be Mums or princesses’.
By the end of the week I had him programmed saying Mums can be presidents, engineers, fly jets, women can do whatever they want. And we were having some fun with it and then I wrote a blog about this and I had some guy who reported me to Google for harassment and child cruelty.
And seriously, this guy’s screaming at me and in the end I just said, ‘mate, go away, you’re an idiot. I don’t even want to talk to you anymore’. Over the years you don’t get a thick skin because it does have an impact because I’m not here to do any harm. When I share something I’m trying to make the world a better place. That is my ultimate goal.
But even when you’re trying to make the world a better place you can come across as a negative to somebody. So, equality is a negative to a man who doesn’t want equality. You can’t change their mind on Facebook, LinkedIn or Twitter or anywhere else, they’re going to rage and rage so you’ve just got to let them go.
So, I’m like, one comment, two, if he’s still screaming at me we’re pretty much done. It’s one of those things I think you get better at dealing with it the longer you do it. And picture them sitting in the basement of their mum’s house in their underwear with a hairy back—that helps too.
Darren:
There have been examples of people committing suicide, which is really sad.
Andrea:
As parents it’s terrible. Our children are facing this world where suicide because of social media and the impact of social media is something we’ve got to think about. I think social media is being blamed for a lot. I think we’ve got to look at some fundamental flaws in the society we’ve built.
Social media is the tool of the time but the crappy shit that’s going on in the world right now has always gone on in the world before social media.
Darren:
It just didn’t have the platform to amplify the shit that’s going on.
Andrea:
Are suicide rates growing because of social media or are suicide rates growing because we are building a very unequal world? It’s government’s fault, automation’s fault, business’ fault.
I don’t always think we’re having the conversations we should be having. We’re blaming the tools of the time versus we’re building fundamentally flawed societies.
Darren:
This is completely left-field but the whole idea of the internet was to democratise communication but in the process we’ve actually amplified the worst aspects of human behaviour and at the same time created and amplified some of the positive things.
Andrea:
We have but is it social media’s fault?
Darren:
It’s the tool.
Andrea:
But we still had World War 2 with the Nazis killing the Jews. We still had Rwanda.
Darren:
And Pol Pot.
Andrea:
Exactly, and that all happened before social media. We’ve always had this. There is something in humanity.
Darren:
Who was the other one, that despot Idi Amin Dada, but what I’m saying is the internet, not just social media, has allowed the amplification of the negative and the positive.
Andrea:
What’s the balance? One of the things I talk about is that information used to be the pyramid so top down and in a lot of parts of Asia it’s still very much top down; the government, business controls information dispersement.
Now, it’s a pyramid where everyone’s an editor, a publisher, we choose which information we want, we share it widely with our communities. But who we share it with has actually shrunk. Even though we can share information with the entire world, our circles of trust are actually quite small.
It’s the people we know in our lives, we know their heart, their intention so that’s the flip that has happened in the last decade. For the first time in human history, we the people actually control our own information. And I think that’s the shift that has happened and it’s only been a decade.
I don’t think we’re very good at managing it yet. I think the focus of the media (not social) is on the negatives of social media and I don’t know if that’s really the right conversation. Yes, there are a lot of negatives.
Darren:
But there are a lot of positives as well.
Andrea:
Exactly because I think the media is a big problem in the world. The government, lobbyists, all that sort of network it’s all been shaken.
Darren:
Some people would frame the argument as internet and social media has forced the world to be dipolar; you’re either yes or you’re no. You’re positive or you’re negative. The nuance of the world, of life, which is the infinite rainbow of colours has been replaced by black and white because the only way to get traction in the internet and social media is by making a stand at the extremes.
We’ve seen this in politics and we do see it in social media. The stories that get amplified are either happy kittens or extreme racism.
Andrea:
We need the happy kittens because we’re so depressed by the extreme racism.
Darren:
It’s a human condition. Social media is amplifying this but it’s not causing it because it already existed. All it’s doing is amplifying the best and worst of human behaviour in a way that is making it obvious to us.
Andrea:
One of my ideas that I talk about a fair bit is I believe that we’re on the cusp of elevating humankind to a new level of consciousness. We’re stepping up. We are evolving and we evolve after significant periods, after WW1, WW2, Vietnam, the world sort of stepped up; we stopped caring about things, holding onto ideas that had become redundant. I think we’re on the cusp of evolving to another level, a kinder, more giving level.
The whole structure of business it has to change because of the environmental risk. Do we need to go through World War 3 to change? Because if we go through WW3 we’re pretty much screwed as a species.
Darren:
Some would argue that the war on terrorism is WW3.
Andrea:
I think it’s been going on for more the 20 years.
Darren:
But we’ve got some very positive things. We saw post-Christchurch in New Zealand the amount of traction that the New Zealand prime minister got with compassion and empathy because we want the positive but how much fake news?
We live, some would argue, in a post-truth world.
Andrea:
I was having a chat the other day with someone about fake news and they kept hearing about fake news and they went looking for fake news and they couldn’t find any fake news. I hadn’t heard that perspective before. I know of two pieces of fake news. The most recent for me was the Momo moment.
Momo is this Japanese art and there’s this story—apparently it had happened years before where children were getting these messages on WhatsApp to kill themselves. It turned out to be a hoax but it was shared on Rolling Stone.
Darren:
Mainstream media.
Andrea:
How can we stay on the ball if even the top corporations fall for it? My thing is if you’re going to share something new, make sure it’s on at least 5 sources so the source I trust the most is BBC. If it hits the BBC I know it’s been verified, it’s factual information.
Even then I think they got the Momo process wrong. Fake news, we can all live in fear of it but the other side of the thing is common sense. If it doesn’t sound right it might not be right.
Darren:
But a lot of things that get labelled as fake news are actually different perspectives on the same issue. You’ve used the word truth in our conversation a few times and I love the saying, ‘one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist’. You need to be careful about this concept of truth.
Andrea:
I agree.
Darren:
Because truth infers an empirical format and yet we live in a world where there is no one point of truth because it depends on your perspective.
Andrea:
Absolutely. When I met my husband, who is British, he was one of those British people who had this attitude towards Irish people that as an Australian I couldn’t get.
Darren:
Because they drink a lot so as Australians we love them.
Andrea:
But there is a heritage and the BBC are very much linked to that heritage but this idea of the Irish being bad, wrong and he was going on about it. I find it quite boring when people bang on about it—one of the States in Russia that have done some pretty interesting terrorist attacks—this group in Russia—they have suppressed this State up north (not Kazakhstan). They’ve suppressed this State so badly that they are reacting and they’re going in and killing innocent people.
The whole world media gets up against this group of people, the terrorists and I’m like well they might actually have a point. We should be listening to that. The definition of terrorism for me is not right. The Afghanistan’s, Iraqis; I look at what our own country has done.
Darren:
Sorry, you‘ve lived in so many countries, which one are you talking about.
Andrea:
Australia. We have participated, funded, sent troops.
Darren:
We were part of the coalition of the willing. The ill-conceived and poorly executed plan to invade Iraq largely for their oil.
Andrea:
We are responsible. The Americans will leave before they should; they won’t fix it up so 20 years later we’ll have more terrorists coming out from a new organisation. The whole media conversation around ISIS is dead—get over yourselves. ISIS is not dead. We’re continually building a world, creating an environment for terrorists and we’re constantly demonising the terrorists and it’s wrong because if they were turning up at my wedding and shooting my family I’d kill ‘em.
Darren:
I’ve just noticed the time. This has been a great conversation.
Andrea:
We’re not talking about content marketing at all.
Darren:
Thanks, Andrea, I really appreciate you making time to sit down and have a glass of Cabernet Sauvignon and I’m drinking Fosters so thank you to Fosters for the beer. But before we finish up I have a question for you. Beyond yourself who do you think is actually the best example for people who want to look at building their profile through social media?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley. Find all the episodes here
