Dani Bassil started her career in Sydney before migrating to the UK early this century to work in a number of highly respected agencies, including Mother, Weiden & Kennedy, VCCP and the CEO of Digital UK. She recently returned to Australia to take up the role of Chief Executive Officer at Clemenger BBDO Australia.
Dani shares her experience, not only working in, but also being an industry leader in both the UK and Australia and exploring how market size and geography play a role in the approach to advertising, decision-making, creativity and more.
She also reflects on the way issues around diversity, inclusion and gender equality are playing out in the northern and southern hemispheres when it comes to the advertising industry.
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We are not doing, collectively a good enough job there. And that’s some of the policies and plans that we’re working on now.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, Founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
At the start of the global pandemic, Australian marketing and advertising saw many expat Australians returning home after decades of working overseas. But now, with the threat of the pandemic subsiding reports show that the trend of Australians going back overseas is on the rise again.
My guest today is someone who left Australian shores at the start of this millennium and has now returned to take up a senior management role at one of Australia’s leading creative agencies. So, what is the difference between working in the UK and in Australia? And is there a benefit in packing up and travelling overseas to further your career?
To discuss these questions and more, please welcome to managing marketing Dani Bassil, Chief Executive Officer at Clemenger, BBDO Australia.
Welcome Dani.
Dani:
Thank you. Pleasure to be here, Darren. Thank you for asking.
Darren:
Well, look, it’s an interesting conversation from my perspective because running a global business, particularly the northern hemisphere, and southern hemisphere, it’s always interesting to give people that perspective.
I think there’s definite perspective from Australia looking up towards the rest of the world, but also from the other side of the world looking at Australia. I’m really interested in understanding that dual perspective that you’ve got because you started your career here in Sydney-
Dani:
I did.
Darren:
And then spent a significant amount of time really building a career in the UK before returning home.
Dani:
Yeah, it’s been an interesting journey for sure. I worked in various agencies here until I was 27. Back in the day you had until 28 to get your two-year working holiday visa and I think I was three weeks before that and thought, “Shit, I better do this. I’ve always wanted to.”
And I packed up everything I owned into one suitcase and went on my way. Said to mom and dad, I’ll be back in two years and two decades later I did come back. But it’s really interesting actually, and I was a baby when I left as far as my career went.
And the really good grounding I had here was, I think because it’s a smaller market, you put your hand to a lot more things. And I got to the UK, I got to London and the thing that I didn’t like about it was you were very much siloed into you do this bit. Because I guess the scale of the agencies is so much bigger and I never really bought into that.
And I think the reason why I probably did quite well was because I was interested in the whole business, not just being an account person or being a planner or being a creative. I loved all of it and I had a point of view on all of it and I still love all of it.
And I think that the grounding here, I’m not sure I would’ve had that perspective going to London. But I always knew I was going to come back, and actually when I met my husband 14 years ago, on the first night we met, the deal was I’m going to go back to Australia at some point. So, if you’re not into that then we can’t do this, and here we are.
Darren:
Now, it’s an interesting point you raised because I know a lot of creative people that even though, in those days it was writer, art director found themselves landing in New York or London and it wasn’t just whether you’re a writer or an art director, there was also a question about, well what category, are you automotive or are you farmer or whatever.
And it just blew their mind because a creative person in Australia would probably want to work across as many different categories as possible. But in those big markets, you are category-specific.
Dani:
Oh, totally. My old business in the UK, Digitas, in the U.S., they have a banking client that’s a hundred million dollars. So, they need FS experts from a credit perspective, which the scale of it is just even from a UK perspective, when we looked at the States, we were like, “Wow, it’s just so much more epic.” And then the UK is kind of in between and then you come to Australia and it’s obviously a smaller market.
So, I kind of understand that. And I guess creatives make their name shooting cars or understanding that market is so nuanced and they kind of make a career out of it or you become a comedy writer or this or that and there is a bit more categorization.
But the great thing about Australia, as I said before for what I did, I think it’s the same with creatives, you do it all and I think that’s why we’re so well loved abroad.
Darren:
Yeah, it is a bit of a conundrum, isn’t it? Because you hear a lot from people overseas saying, “We love Australians because they’re so well-rounded and they have broad experience.” But then as you say on the other part, they want you to fit into a particular pigeonhole, which is actually quite difficult if you’ve got broad experience.
Dani:
Yeah, I think it is really interesting actually, I think because we’ve got broad experience, I think what that means in turn is we have a broad way of thinking. And even though they might want for you to eventually go into a specialism, they like the way that we think in broader terms, even if we apply it to one thing, if that makes sense.
We are innately curious. It’s why wherever you go in the world, there’s always Aussies somewhere doing something that have either moved somewhere or traveling somewhere we are, I think because of the nature of this country and the one thing I have noticed coming back is you forget how far other countries actually are when you have to get on a plane and go somewhere. And we do that naturally because we have to, we are just more curious, I think.
Darren:
One of my great joys is sitting on a flight out of Sydney going anywhere overseas and you’re sitting next to someone who it’s their first time on the airplane and about three to four hours in, if they’ve got the window. So, you say, “What’s the land below us?”
And they go, “I don’t know.” And you go, “That’s still Australia.” It’s four hours and we haven’t got out of the country yet. Whereas in London, you fly four hours, you could be in what, Moscow.
Dani:
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Darren:
Not that you’d want to be at the moment, but …
Dani:
Indeed. But I must say, look, I’ve loved coming back and it’s amazing and I’ve been to almost every, probably a beach in every continent and nothing beats Australia, and I would go with-
Darren:
Ah, you’re still a beach girl?
Dani:
I’m still a beach girl, but my British or my friends from other places, not Australia would always be so disappointed when we go to Greece or somewhere and I’d be like, “Oh, this beach is alright,” I’m like, “What are you talking about.” Anyway that-
Darren:
That leads us to another point about working in the UK and that is in Australia you are largely either working for local clients or you’re on the end of some sort of global project, which is originated somewhere else.
Whereas London particularly, you are often working on business that’s going to be European, pan-European or even multi-market or global, quite a different perspective. I mean, when you look at Australian companies, there are very few that are doing global campaigns out of Australia, apart from Tourism Australia. You’d be hard pressed to find a handful more, wouldn’t you?
Dani:
Yep, and I’m absolutely loving that. I have to say that the amount of — I mean global work is great, don’t get me wrong, but it’s refreshing for me on a personal level. The less global you get, the less political the work gets.
And that’s really nice. Because I am inherently about the work and being able to focus on that in a, as I said, less political way is great right now for me. I’m loving it.
Darren:
So, you see that as actually a benefit, whereas a lot of people see … particularly when you’re in Australia getting work handed down like a global campaign, and they’re going, “Well just localize it for the local market, but not too much.”
Dani:
And we’ve got some of those clients, but I think the interesting thing that I’ve loved about the people leading those businesses in my business at the moment at Clems is, you have to work a bit harder to find the opportunities, but as long as you still push where you can, you’ll get some good work out. It just might not be all the time and it might not be your own all the time, but that’s okay.
As I said, we’ve got one of those clients and we’ve just got up a really fantastic idea for the Australian market, which we pushed hard on and they want to do it, which is great. And that might be one 1 of 10 rather than 9 out of 10. That’s the difference I think.
Darren:
Now, let’s start talking some specifics because one of the things that the Australian market prides itself, and I think one of the reasons why local agencies invest so much in shows like Kan is because this wanting to test ourselves on a global standard and usually quite proud when we punch above our weight.
Dani:
And I think we do. I think Australia, it’s really funny because we’ve obviously got a big client, Carlton & United Brewery, we’ve got 20 alcohol brands, it’s a bit of a gift of a client, I’m not going to lie. And I keep sending my UK friends, “We just launched Carlton Dry, we did an amazing piece of work for that. We created a world called Drylandia,” and they’re loving it.
They’re like, “Keep sending the beer ads. We love the Australian beer ads.” There is something I think the world still looks to us because I think we do punch above our weight in this industry considering the size of the market we have.
Because I think we — definitely I found in this agency anyway, there is just a creativity, like is oozing out of everybody and every part of the business. And that is partly from its DNA, partly from its history and its ambition. But it’s absolutely fantastic.
And I worked at a few places like that in London, but certainly not all of them. And I think that that is part of the industry here is to punch above its weight. And I think it’s really brilliant and we should never lose that. It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to come home.
Darren:
But yeah, you raised some of the agencies you’ve worked at in London. And they’re not creative slouches. I mean there’s Mother, there’s Wieden+Kennedy, VCCP, Grey London, has had many awards and Digitas.
How do you … that’s very high level creative, that’s a high creative standard. Do you see the same possibility here?
Dani:
Oh, definitely. And what I love — I’ll call out two of those agencies from a creative perspective.
Darren:
Because you were a mother at Mother.
Dani:
I was a mother at Mother, which I think for me was a very defining moment in my career. Not just because the model at the time, you are account person and a maker together. And that is the role that I absolutely loved. And I think that gave me such a broad perspective on the agency and the clients I was working on as well, which were incredible at the time.
But what I loved about both of those agencies, both Wiedens and Mother, is you had to be on your A game. Because everyone you worked with was absolutely incredible. Like the best people I ever worked with.
And so, if you weren’t on your A game, you got called out. And the team and the team making the work and doing the work was everything. And I’ve taken that spirit with me, I think everywhere I’ve ever worked. And we tried to build that culture and I think we did a really good job at Digitas, obviously a very different business.
And we’ve definitely got the makings of that culture at Clems. We are just optimizing it a bit now. And we’ve got some great plans and we’ve got some great ambitions. But yeah, that’s what I learned from those agencies, and I don’t think you learn that anywhere else.
Darren:
Now, there’s another point that you raised, or you touched on a little bit earlier and that was the global can become quite political. It’s also because the budgets, because of the scale. Suddenly, the budgets are really big and one of the things that I often get told overseas is they love Australians because they get a lot done for very little.
But it must get quite frustrating when suddenly, you’ve got these what appear to be massive budgets, but they all get caught up in having to accommodate all of these variations and changes and all of the needs of the individual markets. Is that one of the frustrations of that global work?
Dani:
Oh, 100%. I remember being at Wiedens working on Nokia. Oh my God, this was so long ago and we had 28 different markets on the call. And you’re trying to agree the work with 28 different voices and it’s impossible. It’s so difficult.
And it’s a bit like we talk in this industry a bit about how research can kill great ideas, massive global client calls with 28 markets is the surest way to kill a good idea in particular.
Darren:
Well, committees kill anything.
Dani:
Exactly. So, that’s what I mean, like coming back here and working on, I would say 70% of our businesses, Australian businesses has been after living that world for so long, a really nice and refreshing thing that I didn’t really think about actually and expect. So, I’m really loving it at the moment.
Darren:
Because one of my frustrations about the Australian market is in many ways it’s the ultimate test market for a large part of the world. I’m not saying all of the world because obviously Asian cultures, but there’s a significant Asian population here.
Australia has got quite a diverse cultural makeup. It’s also relatively small to other markets. I’m just wondering why more global marketers are not thinking of Australia as almost a test market. That they can roll, do stuff here on a relatively small basis compared to their global budgets that they then roll out.
Dani:
Yeah, it’s interesting because when I left here 20 years ago, I felt like Australia was that. And I remember, God back in the day, we were the first to have online banking and they tested it here. And even my very, very first job was at News Corp working in the advertising section of the Australian, and we had the first color paper and they tested it here before they rolled it out to the big market.
I always thought of Australia like that, but I’m not sure. And I don’t know why we are not continuing to do that. Maybe globalization has changed the way that companies think about market, I’m not sure, but it should be. And that’s where the opportunity here is I think is try them here, do them differently and then roll them out.
Darren:
Well, McDonald’s started McCafé in Melbourne and rolled that out. There are opportunities, but a frustration for me was there was a campaign, I’m bound by non-disclosure agreements, but let’s say it was a consumer package good, a food good that a local agency did this amazing campaign for, and they made it with a director because there was a very specific style that only this director did.
And it went gangbusters here. The product was flying off the shelves. It was one of those Effie award-winning stories that you would dream to have. Then the head office in let’s say Europe, to make it harder to define who it is, said, “Well we want to make that.”
They handed it to their local agency. They got the same director to make it. The director made virtually the same commercials for five times the money that they got paid in Australia, the local agency got nothing, and it was a real eye-opener for me.
This is five years after I’d started the business because the client had made the agency sign an agreement that they owned all of the IPs. So, the agency came up with the idea here that had such an impact on their business, but they could just take that idea to Europe, remake it. The director was happy, just made five times his original fee to remake the ads in the “local styling.”
Dani:
That’s crazy.
Darren:
It is crazy, isn’t it? There’s a commerciality about this, that one is unfair. But a prime example of how you could really test things in this market before you go and make that five times commitment just in production.
Dani:
I’ve got to say as an industry, we cut some stupid deals sometimes and we really need to look at ourselves long and hard on why.
Darren:
I think, there’s commercial arrangements that are not holding a client to ransom but are just more ethically and morally fair to the creators, that people don’t even seem to think about.
Dani:
And that’s wrong actually because it’s not just the agency, it’s the whole process and your partners, you need to think about that in the round before you go and make those sorts of decisions. Although, in this case the director did really well out of it. So, well done.
Darren:
Well done director.
Dani:
That’s insane. I mean, I don’t know. I think that I suppose now that maybe, I think what was interesting about Australia when I left is we tended to be the APAC hub and that’s gone.
Darren:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dani:
And that’s now shifted to Singapore, Hong Kong or wherever. And maybe that’s part of the problem now, potentially.
Darren:
No, it’s interesting because certainly when you leave Australia and you’re doing business, Australia is virtually irrelevant to Asia. It is seen as a western outpost more than part, no matter how much of the Australian government wants us to be part, no matter how many migrants that we’ve welcomed to Australian shores from Asia and the subcontinent, Australia is still seen as being part of the west rather than part of the region.
Dani:
And we are an outlier culturally.
Darren:
Yeah.
Dani:
And from a numbers’ perspective as well, you know population, China, et cetera, you know, we are from an APAC perspective, we’re out flanked by lots of other highly populated countries that are much bigger than us. So, it kind of makes sense.
Darren:
I’ve got twin boys and they were asking me about the size of countries because their mother’s from China and I was looking at the population and did you realize that if you took a billion people out of China and a billion people out of India, India’s still the largest population and China’s still the second largest and America is still the third largest, that they’ve got a billion people each before you even get to the third largest population. Just phenomenal at scale. Like we’re talking about Europe or the UK being a bigger market.
Dani:
Yeah, absolutely. No, well I mean Europe obviously I was living in London, well I was actually on holidays in Greece when the Brexit vote happened and my Greek cappuccino tripled in price that day, which was great. But Europe is 550 million or the EU was anyway before we left. And America is what, 400?
Darren:
Yeah. 360.
Dani:
I mean, yeah, China and India, I remember that from working on global business. If you can get those markets right, the rest don’t really matter.
Darren:
And sort of adjacent to that, there’s a lot of conversation in advertising around the world about diversity, equity, and inclusion and there’s a lot of proactive programs happening here. But it feels a little bit to me that advertising generally in the UK and Australia and even the U.S., best so the U.S. is quite slow to embrace diversity and particularly slow on gender equality. Would you agree or disagree with that?
Dani:
Well, I can speak from a UK perspective. So, we have WGEA reporting here, I believe it’s called. We have the gender pay gap reporting, but that’s been compulsory for businesses over 250 people for about 10 years now. So, you had to publicly disclose your-
Darren:
This is in the UK.
Dani:
In the UK. Whereas I believe we’re doing that here from next year. So, really, we’re quite far behind. I’m not sure what they do in the U.S. The challenge we found with diversity, especially when I was working at Digitas and leading that business was how you understand diversity.
So, for example, when someone joined Digitas, you would fill in a form and we asked a question on diversity and ethnicity, but you could opt out of answering that. And we found out through the research we did within the business that a lot of people chose not to disclose because they didn’t want to be discriminated against when they first joined.
So, diversity is more challenging in my opinion because when you look at someone you don’t automatically know are they neurodiverse, what background they’re from, what religion they are. I mean, I wouldn’t have a clue looking at you. All I can go on is your name and that you appear to be a man and I’m assuming you talk about yourself as that.
Darren:
I’m over ranked for privilege.
Dani:
Yes.
Darren:
I should be the person that’s actively chosen against, white male, older. I didn’t have a private school education, but 20 years ago I was the perfect advertising candidate.
Dani:
So, we gave ourselves some metrics in my old business that we gave our ourselves a goal of five years of 0% gender pay gap. And what they call in the UK BAME, which is black and minority ethnic, that’s the government term would be 45% of the business because that’s what the greater London population was.
So, we wanted to be representative of the city that we were in, but that was really challenging because we didn’t know what everyone in the business … what they selected themselves as for want of a better term. So, the metric was hard to reach because we didn’t know.
So, anyway, we did quite a lot of work around that, and that is continuing. And to be fair, we are doing a similar thing at Clemenger and we’re at the start of that journey. We’ve started a DE&IB committee, which is, I think B is for belonging.
And that’s the word I find the most interesting. If you can create a culture of inclusion and belonging where people feel like they have an equal voice and an equal opportunity, then you will find yourself with a more diverse workforce by the nature of that culture. And that’s what we’re working on now.
Darren:
So, what about the gender pay gap? Is that covered in there?
Dani:
Yes. So, we’re just working on our strategy now. I mean it was really challenging at my old business because we had 200 people in technology and there were five women in it. And as much as we tried to hire women, they didn’t exist. So, we created our sort of internship and apprenticeship programming to that for women.
A bit easier, although there is still a huge creative issue on gender both in the U.S., the UK, and definitely in Australia, which we need to try to crack collectively as an industry. So, we are just coming up with all of our strategies now.
And there is a gender strategy, there’s a diversity strategy and we’re kind of building it out. But we’ve got a long way to go I think, because I think we’re further behind the rest of the world.
Darren:
I think after decades and decades of being seen as an industry that’s quite exclusive to turn that perception around. Because one of the big challenges is actually getting people to even consider advertising as a career that’s suitable for them.
And that’s creative and account management and strategy and technology. And now there’s an increased competition because there are so many industries competing for young, bright, curious, inventive, creative people.
Dani:
Absolutely. And if we do not-
Darren:
And they pay better.
Dani:
They do pay better. If we do not crack the work life balance, which we’re doing I would say very well, if we do not crack the maternity leave and return to work situation. Because honestly, if I was a creative in a deadline orientated business like this and I’ve recently had a baby, I’ve got a three-and-a-half-year-old, it’s really hard.
And we are not doing collectively a good enough job there. And that’s some of the policies and plans that we’re working on now is around that. We’ve got to nail that issue.
Darren:
Now, in London there’s a group called WACL. And it has been around for many years-
Dani:
A hundred years.
Darren:
And it does an amazing job at really fostering the community of women leaders, doesn’t it?
Dani:
It does. And we desperately need something like that here. And we’ve got a new MD of one of our sister agencies in the group, a woman who sent me an email last week saying, “Oh is there a women’s network in our industry?” And I was like, “No, but there should be one.” And it’s really important.
And I’ll never forget when I was announced as CEO at Digitas, it was the first time they’d ever had a female CEO. And I was up on the podium, there’s 500 people at the time, introduced myself, blah, blah blah, got off the stage and there was a queue of about 10 women who I’d never met before, just wanting to say hello and to say it’s so amazing that we’ve got a female CEO. And I never thought about it … I felt so excited about getting the job.
I never thought about the impact it would have on the females in the agency because they’d never had a, I suppose a role model or someone to look up to show them what their path might be. And that’s why diversity not just gender, but all of it is so important for the people who look at you, who identify someone like you, they need to see a path for themselves.
And that is absolutely the most important thing that our industry has to get a grapple on. That it is very white male still, it’s shifting to be more female orientated. But we need other cultures and other skin colors and other religious people, people of different source of religion to be up on those stages so that people can identify that they too can do that job one day. I think that’s really important.
Darren:
Yeah, well we’ve had the boys club for centuries, so it’s probably worthwhile having a club for women.
Dani:
Yes. And it’s definitely on my list and I think it’s something that we desperately need, and women should be able to support women in their careers and give advice and give their own perspectives. They’re the things that help you. And my female network in the UK, I don’t think I would ever have gotten to the seniority that I did without their help and support and their advice.
Darren:
So, just so you know, and you may have heard of it already, there’s a group called Mentor Walks in Australia and it’s now expanded overseas, which is for women. And they put you together with mentors in groups and you go walking around.
So, I mean there is something here. It’s not for the advertising or marketing industry specifically. Have you heard of that?
Dani:
No, I’ve not. So, you could never do that in the UK because it rains all the time.
Darren:
Well, and that gets me onto my next point is it’s interesting from my perspective, talking to people that have returned to Australia, having spent a decade or more overseas, there seems to have been two triggers.
One is that obviously COVID and the pandemic got people thinking about, “Well, if this is the world as we know it, where do I want to be?”. And having good memories about growing up in Australia. The other is the standard of living and even the cost of living. People complain rightly or wrongly about the cost of living. But living in Australia is quite a luxury, isn’t it?
Dani:
I don’t know, you obviously walk through the offices here, you see the view, I mean I still walk up here every day that I come into work, and I can’t quite believe. Sydney is ridiculous, it is ridiculously beautiful in every way. And that is like — I don’t think Australians quite know how lucky they’ve got it sometimes.
So, the standard of living is absolutely fantastic and it’s easy to live here, I don’t know how much you heard, but the NHS in the UK is on its knees, and I came here, got a doctor’s appointment within a day. I mean you were waiting months to even see a GP in the UK before I left.
Got my daughter injections on the spot to get her up to date. So, she’d go pre — like it was all just done.
And I remember calling one of my friends being in shock, just going, “I just can’t believe what happened, it was so smooth, and it was just …” yeah, you just forget about all these sorts of little things really.
But I see both sides of it. Like my home is London and my home is Sydney and I will always call them both home. And that is, when you first talked about people going back, like coming here after COVID and returning to the UK, I can see why.
Because there are still days that I miss my home really desperately. So, yeah, I kind of understand both sides of it really. It’s hard. You are forever in two homes.
Darren:
Because both have pluses and minuses, don’t they?
Dani:
Absolutely. Totally. And anywhere in the world absolutely has that. So, Sydney or Australia, you know, I spend a lot of time in Melbourne as well, is no different. Melbourne has pros and cons to Sydney. Some days I’m like, “We should really move to Melbourne. Melbourne’s so cool.”
And some days I’m like, “Oh you can’t beat Sydney.” And the industry in the UK is incredible and you get to work on the big scale stuff and global and all of those things. And Australia has its benefits. And what I do love about this market is that it’s really relationship based.
Your clients not are more forgiving but the UK I suppose because of the size of it and the scale of it, I find people that clients here are more willing to work through issues and solutions together. And you’re going on a journey together and it’s really wonderful.
Like the relationships I developed with the clients already in such a short period of time, I feel like I’ve been able to get much closer to them. A, because they’re just awesome people and really smart marketeers that would’ve taken a lot longer back in the UK. So, I really like that.
And I really … like people talk about Australian tall poppy syndrome, I’ve not experienced that at all. All the other industry CEOs I’ve met have been welcoming, helpful, really smart, wonderful people who I am now friends with. And I didn’t quite expect that. And that’s been really nice.
Darren:
So, looking at the world as it is today and your experience, if there was a young person, hasn’t quite hit their 28th birthday that’s contemplating working overseas, would you encourage them to do it today?
Dani:
Absolutely. I think if you have the opportunity or you want to do anything like that, you should absolutely take it with both hands. What you learn in the UK is different to what you’ll learn here and that will make you better at whatever it is you are doing.
Whether that’s creative, a planner, an account person, a producer, or whatever. You’ll get a different perspective. You’ll work on different clients. I worked on a big telco in the UK, and we had a crack team surrounding the CEO on a full kind of brand and digital transformation project that will last three years.
And the scale of that was massive and it’s fantastic that I’m able to bring that back here and you’ll be involved in — I encourage people to go and come back. I think it’s great for us as an industry because whether it’s the U.S. or the UK, we get that experience back here and then that makes our thinking more global, even if it is for Australian clients, which, I look at some of the work we’ve done, and I see the global creative spirit in the work and I think it’s made it better.
So, yes, I absolutely think people should go and do that. And also you get to jump on a train and be in another country in two hours and you can’t do that here. So, go and do that and experience. It’ll be great.
Darren:
Fantastic. Dani Bassil, thank you so much for making time to have this conversation.
Dani:
It’s always a pleasure to talk to you, Darren. It’s been wonderful.
Darren:
You’re very kind. But look, just to finish up, I’d be really interested if you had a piece of advice for your 27-year-old self, what would you be saying to them?