Ellie Angell is a Senior Consultant at TrinityP3 and one of a handful of openly transwomen with a long career in media and advertising in Australia, Asia and originally the UK. Her unique perspective on the issues of transpeople working within the advertising and marketing industry and the challenges of coming out to not just family and friends but to colleagues and the wider industry,
With the release of the WGEA Gender Pay Gap data earlier this year, International Women’s Day, and the continued issue of lethal violence against women in Australian society, the issue of gender equity and inclusion is a hot topic in wider society, but particularly in media, advertising, and marketing.
Ellie shares a very personal and informed perspective of the challenges and benefits of being a transwoman in the industry.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder, and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you’re enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
With the release of the WGEA gender pay gap data last month, International Women’s Day this month, and the continued issue of lethal violence against women in Australian society, the issue of gender equality and inclusion is a hot topic in wider society, but particularly from our perspective in media advertising and marketing.
My guest today brings a unique perspective to this issue, is one of only a handful of openly trans women with a long career in media and advertising, both in Australia, Asia, and originally from the UK.
Please welcome my guest who’s usually hosting the Managing Marketing Podcast, TrinityP3, senior consultant, Ellie Angell. Welcome, Ellie.
Ellie:
Hello, Darren. It’s nice to be here on the other side of the microphone for a change.
Darren:
Well, I was going to say, usually you are in the driving seat as the host, but now you are a guest today and I’m going to try and make sure that it’s as painless as possible or as enjoyable as possible.
Ellie:
That’s what I say to my guests before we, so yeah. I’m sure it’ll be absolutely fine. I’ll get into the swing of this. It’s been a while since I’ve been an interviewee, but it’s going to be good. I’m sure.
Darren:
Now, look, probably a good place to start is a lot of people these days, we’ve had COVID and all of the ramifications of that and just life generally tosses up some, let’s say, challenges and changes in our lives that we all have to deal with.
And often with change comes a lot of health and mental health issues. But you’ve been through what I would consider probably one of the largest changes that someone could confront in their lives in the last 12 months.
Ellie:
Yes. I think I have. I do want to say upfront that yes, I have been through a big change. However, everyone carries their own burden. I’m not unique in going through some challenges, in going through a big change in life.
But yes, you’re right, it is fairly fundamental. It’s only been made apparent to my professional colleagues very recently, but of course, it’s been a lot longer than that, perhaps in the making.
But I’m really happy to be here now. And it’s certainly coming out like this to the industry and the hugely positive response that I’ve had has been really affirming to me. So, I’m really happy to be here now.
Darren:
Yeah, I can imagine. And only imagine. I think everyone feels often — and I know you and I have reflected on this separately and earlier that I think everyone carries around a little bit of, there’s a part of them that’s them, and then there’s their often professional or public persona.
There’s obviously a big degree for you between who you felt compelled to act out as and who you really felt as a human being.
Ellie:
Obviously, coming out professionally was the last sort of — it really was the last brick in the wall being removed in terms of who knew about me and who didn’t.
But being forced to be someone that you are not constantly is hard. And it causes a dark shadow. And some people, again, reflecting on my experience with people who’ve responded to me coming out, the people who’ve known me a long time. Some of them have said, “Look, we’ve always seen you’ve had this dark shadow. We’ve always felt that there’s this core of unhappiness in you, and we could never work out why.”
And of course, that causes challenges. People don’t like people who are dark. And it’s been a challenge because I haven’t been able to explain why, I haven’t had the words or the capacity to be able to explain why.
And this has kind of been a part of my life for so long. And being free of that, even though it’s still complex for me, it’s enormously liberating. And I think people have been incredibly positive in their response, having really put up with me a lot of people for a long time with that dark shadow because it was always there.
When you are forced to act … of course, and you’re right Darren, everyone has different parts of them that they — and your work persona, and my work persona is still different from my personal life. Of course it is.
But gender underlines everything. Gender, it’s a thick red thread running through your entire core. No matter who you are and in what situation you are, you are always your gender. And so, that can be a bit tricky. That can be a bit tricky to live with honestly.
Darren:
Look, and you’ve said that you’ve largely had a positive response from people. I remember when you informed me about your personal circumstances. I had nothing but joy for two reasons. The first was bits fell into place for me.
In many ways what you said other people have said, that suddenly some of the things that I felt for you and about you I could understand better. But also, because I think it’s important for us to live our lives as truthful to who we think we should be.
And so, yeah, from that perspective, and you’ve done nothing but prove that because this Ellie is certainly someone that is more comfortable, confident, and engaging than you were beforehand.
Ellie:
Well, I’m glad that’s improved. I mean, that’s a good thing. But no, all joking aside, you’re right. I’m able to express myself in different ways. And I remember, I said to you guys at the time when we were talking to you and the rest of the consultants, that it’s not like I’ve got two personalities. It’s just I’m able to express myself as myself as opposed to sort of the square peg in the round hole that I was.
And so, fundamentally, I still laugh at the same things. I cry at the same things. I get irritated and frustrated by the same things, but I’m able to adopt a different mindset to it because I can just let it flow naturally as opposed to putting barriers up around it all the time.
And whilst we’re on the topic of you and I talking, I do want to call out TrinityP3. I do want to call out you and Nathan and Lydia and all of the consultants really. I told you in the morning, and by the afternoon I had a new email address.
I mean, and I was being asked to sort of provide some guidance and I was being asked about the podcast I’d recorded and the articles I’d written and how do we deal with that? That kind of speed of response and sort of openness of response was massively valuable to me.
And it would be to anyone else who’s listening and any other organization who’s listening, because that … it’s heart in the mouth. Your heart is in your mouth. It’s a huge thing to come out and talk about.
And of course, you worry about what the response is going to be, but the quicker that response and the more open and genuine that response is, the better. And you guys did an amazing job in that regard. So, thank you.
Darren:
No, thank you. I mean, it felt from our perspective that it was just natural. We’ve been together as colleagues and friends for 10 years. It felt like the very natural thing to do.
But I can imagine, because looking back on your career, you’ve largely had roles and quite demanding responsible roles in very big agency organizations. The big media companies, you were chief commercial officer in Asia with Havas, these are very high profile, responsible roles. Do those types of roles put added pressure or burden, or is it just the same?
Ellie:
I think they do. But that is not to say anything derogatory about the organizations I’ve worked for. In terms of how I’m surrounded by people and individuals, I doubt that it would’ve made a huge amount of difference, but in terms of the speed at which people would’ve been able to respond in a larger organization, I think that would probably be quite challenging.
Because I think people just aren’t set up. Trans is a different thing to coming out as gay, for example. And I’m not trying to denigrate that either. That’s another huge thing that people have to do. But it just, it’s-
Darren:
But it is different. It’s different.
Ellie:
It’s different.
Darren:
Socially context. Yeah.
Ellie:
It’s gender identity. The other thing I’d add is that I think the geographical location would also have a barrier.
Darren:
Well, some cultures are more conservative, and others are more open. I mean, when you think about Australia was one of the last countries to vote for same sex marriage, for instance. And yet we think of ourselves as being quite an open society. But in actual fact, there’s quite a deep vein of conservatism in Australian society.
Ellie:
And there is, and it’s something I have to think about in my day-to-day life. And the sad fact is that violence against trans people is on the rise. It’s on the rise in some of the biggest westernized societies in the world, the UK, America.
In particular in countries like Asia had I come out there and I’d have had to think about, I’d be breaking laws in some of those countries. I could be jailed in some of those countries for openly being myself.
There would’ve been a question about getting into a country on a passport, which has my true name on it, and all of this kind of stuff. That’s just the minutiae and the logistics of it all. Thinking about those things is something I have to do.
I spent two years based in Singapore traveling all around Asia. That would’ve been challenging, honestly with all due respect to all of those countries. And they all have their own right to choose how they want to approach things. But that would’ve had a bearing on certainly any decision I would’ve made at that time.
Darren:
There is a conundrum though, with Singapore personally, and this is just a personal expression, but because it was a seaport, they have prostitution openly legalized. In fact, famously the Four Floors of Whores is this tourist institution.
And yet, it’s only just recently that they’ve decriminalized homosexuality. And I’m not even sure of the status of trans people in Singapore, but there is this sort of conundrum, this juxtaposition between what’s acceptable and what isn’t in some cultures.
Ellie:
Yeah. And of course, there’s a juxtaposition between the actual people and the institution and the government. I mean, I wasn’t openly out in Singapore. But one of my friends had a 40th birthday out there. And the theme was Ginger, and I went as a spice girl.
And that was, I just went in a taxi and went on … and I got nothing but smiles and nothing but friendliness and that was nerve-racking. I mean, that was nerve-racking. Even though, I was doing it in the context of I’m dressing up. It was still nerve-racking.
But yeah, look, it’s interesting. There were interesting experiences in those countries, but certainly getting back to the question, it would’ve been very different doing it then to doing it now in the context of Australia and TrinityP3 and everything else.
Darren:
The advertising industry is often accused of being quite a boys club, and there has been a boys club, obviously things are changing and evolving slowly, perhaps not fast enough for some, but it is changing.
Do you think that impacts you more when there is a culture within an industry of masculinity and drinking and that type of thing? Or is it something that you just avoid?
Ellie:
Yeah. I mean, the industry now versus industry then is very, very different.
But I think — I mean, this is something that we discussed the other day. I mean, the creativity and some of the nuances and characteristics of the people in the advertising industry kind of drew me to it. And I think, if it had to be any industry that I come out in, it probably would be this one.
Because as much as there is still a boys club, there’s also a huge amount of diversity just in the individuals, whether they’re cisgendered, whether they’re cis or anything else. It just attracted me to those kind of people, even if they didn’t know who I was.
Darren:
You’re right though, it’s an industry that does attract what Apple called the misfits, the square pegs in the round hole. I often have conversations with clients about taking advertising in-house and whether the culture of the organization is going to crush the culture of creativity, that they’re trying to create it within that, that in some cases organizational culture in big corporates would not allow the same sort of creative and personal freedoms that agencies and good agencies do create.
I remember some clients saying, “I love going to the agency because it’s so crazy and wild, and it’s like a circus.” And it’s like, yeah, no, that’s every day in an agency.
Ellie:
I totally agree. If you look at it, I think that the boundaries in agencies are set very, very differently. And people coming in from the corporate side are often shocked by-
Darren:
Or delighted.
Ellie:
Or delighted. Well, I think they’re delighted to be in it, like you say, just coming and being a part of it for a little while. Then they go back and equally agency people going across can get … I know I did, I spent brief amounts of time in corporate world, and it just wasn’t for me. I felt stifled.
And I think, it is a well-known thing now that organizations bringing agency services in-house can struggle with that. They can struggle to find people who are either able to stay or able to keep the culture.
I think where it’s worked or where it’s been sustained, there’s always had to be a strong marketing — there’s got to be a cultural protection around marketing that allows those agency people to flourish as a sort of, even as an entity within an entity.
And I don’t think it’s much of a surprise that where that’s flourished, if I think about examples where that’s flourished often the people in the key marketing roles are also ex-agency people who’ve come in and therefore, they can kind of create that environment for others coming in.
I talked with Jemma Downey a couple of weeks ago when I was on the other side of the mic, and ex-agency person who’s doing an amazing job with marketing in a broader commercial role at Asahi Beverages. And that’s an example, CUB previously is an example where they managed to sustain that in-house model.
But the effort she puts in culturally, I think, and they all do culturally is huge to ensure that those people feel motivated and creative.
Darren:
If they get it right, there’s a great opportunity there for marketers to better understand the underlying culture, not the superficial culture of agencies, but the actual underlying culture that creates that environment for creativity and innovation and perhaps start to embrace that more and more within their own organization. That would be quite transformational, I imagine.
Ellie:
I think it would in the right — I think it could be amazing. And it could be transformational, and it could get people pulling in a very interesting direction in terms of growing outcomes for that business as a whole for sure.
But going back to the original topic, I mean, there are certain types of people who thrive in the agency environment, and I think that’s always been the case. Notwithstanding that there is still the boys club. That has always been the case.
Darren:
Well, it’s interesting because the boys club has largely been seen as the senior management, the ones that have managed to scramble to the top and put a business veneer or a serious veneer across it while sitting on top of what’s probably in some ways would be described as organized chaos by anyone that doesn’t understand what’s happening.
Ellie:
Yeah. There are rhythms to it. But I do want to point, we talked a bit about the boys club. There are some amazing female leaders in the agencies now. It has risen over time. That is a good thing.
It’s not job done by any means, but I think, if I look at the media and advertising agencies and some of the new emerging agencies coming out where they’re either majority female owned and run, or where they’ve got strong female leads, I think it’s really, really encouraging the direction that’s going in.
And I’ve certainly noticed that change over the past … I don’t know, you might have a different view, but I’ve certainly noticed that change particularly accelerate over the past five years. And I think that has fundamentally, whilst the underlying chaos still remains, and the people still remain. I think that has really refreshed the industry and brought different ways of approaching things to a lot of these organizations, a lot of these agencies.
Darren:
Yeah. My personal benchmark will be when the majority of the holding companies have global female CEOs in the role. Because at the moment, it’s five for five or six for six at the moment. It’s still very much a boys club at that level. But that will show complete transformation from my perspective.
Ellie:
Yeah. Look, I’m an advocate of playing the best person in the best role, but at the same time there has to be a leveling up and it takes time. Because these people have to come through the ranks. And it’s why I say it’s not job done.
If you look at the MFA survey that came out, and this is just media agencies, but if you look at that, it’s a majority female workplace, but not a majority female leadership. And so, not job done yet. It needs to be truly representative. But I think I do see the positivity in all the female leadership in those agencies. And I think it’s going to grow over time. It’s only going to grow over time, which is great.
Darren:
Now, Ellie, I wouldn’t mind exploring, you said generally quite a positive response from people in the industry. From that positive response, what are the opportunities you see for the industry to actually embrace and further, particularly inclusion?
What are the types of things that the industry needs to be focusing on? Because I get the feeling there’s a lot of discussion about it, but there’s perhaps not a lot of practical action because people are not sure what that means.
Ellie:
If I think about 20 years ago versus now in agencies, I think some of those steps are being taken. You need to create an environment where people feel comfortable either talking to someone in their organization privately or knowing that they will be supported in their organization. Because the biggest fear is loss of income. The biggest fear is loss of career.
And if you study trans history, recent trans history, it is littered with people who have lost their careers, absolutely littered. I’m not talking about advertising now; I’m just talking about general.
People will come out at work, and they will be kicked out. It’s as simple as that. Now, I don’t think that we are in that position, and that’s partly because everything we’ve just been talking about, the kind of people, it’s a young industry. It’s a gender-diverse industry. It’s a relatively woke industry. All of those things are awesome.
But it’s only been more recently that agencies have started to embrace people and culture leadership. It’s only been more recently that agencies have started to embrace opportunities for people to have therapy and things like this, other sort of services that you can take advantage of as an employee of that agency.
And I think having people who are in those roles, whose sole responsibility is to — and this is very different from a traditional HR department. Of course, these are people who have inherent understanding of some of the challenges faced particularly by people in the rainbow generally. I think the more that happens, the better because it will just foster that opportunity.
I don’t think it’s so much about banging a drum. And it’s not necessarily about sort of flying a flag. It’s just about creating that environment that people really feel comfortable in either talking, like I said, just talking about it or coming out more broadly and having some facilitated steps, almost like a playbook of how that can be done with the minimum level of challenge and fuss and everything else.
People often don’t know … even people who are part of the LGBTQ+ community don’t know an awful lot about trans and why should they, it’s not incumbent on them to educate themselves.
And when I came out, I did see an opportunity just as on a personal level, to talk to some of these organizations who wanted to, and I’ve had a few reach out to me now and say, “Look, we’d love to just understand your lived experience a bit more and how that could be applied in the workplace.”
But it’s having that guidance and having that playbook. And then also, I guess thinking hard about the logistics of it and the sensitivities of it. Stuff that you wouldn’t always necessarily think about. Gender inclusive bathrooms’ probably the obvious one.
If a trans person comes out in your organization, do they know how to behave? Do they know what the boundaries are around that? Do they know what the regulations are around that? Probably not.
Those are the kind of things that people need to be very comfortable and clear about. So, that was a very long answer to a short question, but it’s a big topic.
Darren:
Absolutely. And look, I think one of the things I picked up in that answer was this transition from yes, there’s HR, but increasingly we’re seeing sort of, whether you call it mental health first aiders or people that are there in agencies particularly, with the sole responsibility for making sure people are living their best life as far as their mental health and wellbeing.
And I think that’s such a positive thing because that should be the person you can go to. To your point, it’s really where’s the safe place to start and then have a cohort that can then navigate the way through, isn’t it? Is that what I’m hearing?
Ellie:
I think it’s coming out is a journey in itself. And then not everyone has the ability to just — the assumption is that one day you’re just, “Yeah, here at jazz hand, now I’m out.” It doesn’t work like that for a lot of people, particularly trans people.
And if they can have a safe space to talk about coming out in their organization, not necessarily do it yet, just talk about it and iron out some of these challenges that might not be apparent to them. Those roles are really, really important.
There isn’t much research on proportion of trans people in population, but if you read up on it a bit, generally the accepted level is about 1% of the population. That’s the accepted kind of … we believe that it’s about 1% of the population-
Darren:
One in a hundred.
Ellie:
Is trans. Do the math, extrapolate that out to the number of people we have working in agencies. Maybe 10,000 across different types of agencies. Certainly, not 1% of people working in agencies are openly out as trans.
So, I guess the message to the agencies is it is almost certain that somewhere — particularly if you’re a large agency, there’s a high probability that someone there is going to be sitting in their own little prison.
And so, just making people fully aware of the role and remit of a people and culture leader or whatever else, without necessarily, like I say, it doesn’t have to be about flag waving and cupcakes and all that kind of stuff necessarily.
It just has to be a genuine connection and a genuine ability for people to go and yeah, like you said, facilitate where they’re at and go on that journey with the support of their organization as opposed to feeling that …
Darren:
Yeah. Because I know friends that are came out as gay, for instance, everyone has their own journey. There’s no one process that everyone’s comfortable with. It’s a very individual personal thing, and the circumstances vary from person to person.
But I agree, having a safe space, a good starting point to start that conversation and really get an understanding of the lay of the land and the best way of doing it, it’d be invaluable.
Ellie:
Yeah, the obvious difference with trans, and again, this is not to suggest that one thing is harder than another, coming out is hard. It doesn’t matter who you are and what you are coming out as, if you are making a big change in terms of how people see you, that’s really hard.
With trans, of course, there are things like physical appearance that will be sort of switched, of course it could be done gradually, but ultimately if you do come out, there are fundamental changes that people see and that happen with medication and all of these things that make it much more profound as a challenge for all of the people around a trans person to come to terms with it.
And some advice for those people too on the continued topic of how should agencies deal with it or how should organizations deal with it? Just sensible structured advice for those people too, because we can’t assume everyone’s an expert in trans issues and a lot of people will never come across it.
And there’s lots of things that to me would seem obvious that to other people probably are not obvious at all. And just having that playbook or those guidelines in place, I think, is a hugely important thing that would allow people to feel more comfortable in taking that step.
Darren:
Yeah. Now, just to change a little bit of the focus because I’ve worked with you on and off for 10 years, and now, what was it? Earlier the start of this year, you came out and Ellie as a trans woman, has it made a difference, do you think, to the way you perceive the work you do at TrinityP3 or the way you interact with our various stakeholders, marketers, agencies, procurement people, or is it, to your point, you’re still the same person?
Ellie:
I’m still the same person. I think the way I go about my work doesn’t change. That has no gender as such. I mean, the way in which I relate, or the way in which people relate to me has changed in a nice way, in a good way because people are trying to show support as best they can.
I’ve had some wonderful messages from men and women, I should say, this isn’t just about women, it’s from men and women have given me some amazing sort of messages of support and people have tried to be as conscious as possible and have apologized when they’ve made mistakes and all of that kind of stuff.
I think, the way that women relate to me has changed and that’s amazing. It’s very affirming. I think it to a certain degree shows their level of comfort once they meet me and see me, and they can just get to see actually what this is all about. I think it feels like an affirmation that they’re comfortable with me, which is amazing.
I am hugely, hugely conscious, and careful of not trying to come across like I somehow claim the experience of cisgendered women for the past 20 years of their lives. No matter how I identify, I have still enjoyed the privileges of white male privilege. You know what I mean? I still enjoyed that.
Darren:
Of being a white male.
Ellie:
Regardless of how I identify on the inside. So, I am very, very conscious of not suddenly sticking a flag in the center of International Women’s Day or something like that and saying, “Oh, yeah, no, this is me now. This has always been me. Fight for the rights.”
It shouldn’t work like that. I have to have empathy for those around me that probably makes them feel a little bit more comfortable. I hope it makes them feel a little bit more comfortable. And you say, of course, but a lot of trans rhetoric is very much to do with claiming that kind of lived experience in a way that I don’t believe is correct.
Darren:
And it could be that they haven’t been accepted or embraced and so feel the need to fight for a place in there. Though I do remember, I can’t remember the comedian’s name, but he said the most insulting thing was Caitlyn Jenner being voted Woman of the Year by Time magazine six months after coming out as a trans woman, just what an insult that was to the women that had spent a whole lifetime being women.
And it was I’m assuming a joke, but I’m wondering if your maturity and the circumstances that you find yourself in are more supportive of that view that you’re holding, or whether this is something that you’ve always had.
Ellie:
I just have enormous respect for what women have done. And which I can’t claim that. It’s just not fair. I’ve been abused online because of this by other trans people who seek to sort of … there’s a degree of outrage, which it doesn’t help. It doesn’t help. It just causes polarization and as a type of individual, it causes us to be set back.
It is ridiculous for me to claim the lived experience of childbirth, the lived experience of being a woman in an office. A lot of trans people when they come out. That question you had about that people relate to you differently. I’ve read lots of articles and stories where, “Well, I’m being ignored in the office now. I’m getting my bum pinched.”
It’s absolute nonsense. They’re trying to claim that as a sort of, because it makes them more authentic as a woman. And things don’t work like that. And I think it’s profoundly wrong. And comedians, yeah, they don’t do us any good from — it can be very insulting.
I went to a Chris Rock concert in Melbourne, funnily enough, a few years back, and sat through an excruciating sort of trans misogynist rant in the middle of his show. And it felt horrible. It felt like eyes were on me, even though they weren’t.
So, there’s a line that you can draw, but I do have sympathy with a trans woman being voted Woman of the Year. She could be voted Trans Woman of the Year. That’s a different thing, being voted Woman of the Year, when at that time you’ve got Ruth Bader Ginsburg to pick a random example out of my head. Ruth Bader Ginsburg would’ve still been alive at that point.
Seeing Caitlyn Jenner, who’s been out for six months on the cover of Time Magazine, we’re getting very political here, but that’s not right. That’s not right.
Darren:
Yeah. I have to say I think from my perspective, the biggest transformation for me is I feel like I actually have a better view of who you are, a more genuine person. Because there was always, and I said this earlier, there was always that sense that there was this darkness.
My wife Regina says the Chinese say a shadow on the heart is the way they describe it, and that working with you now feels more, what’s the word? More authentic, the true sense of authentic, more complete, more whole, more without any of the sense of withholding or withholding from the conversation.
So, I have to say it’s been fantastic the last what, three or four months, and looking forward to working with you for a long time to come.
Ellie:
Well, thank you. You too. And I’m conscious that we didn’t really touch much on marketing agencies in that conversation. But an interesting conversation to have, nonetheless.
If anyone listening to this wants to talk to me confidentially and personally about their own position, they are more than welcome to reach out to me. The offer’s there and there are more people in this industry than we know that are struggling with this.
And I think anything that we can do to bring them out and create that sensible authenticity for them as well as that you are seeing in me, I think is — when they’re ready and in all of that kind of stuff in their own time. But I think that can only be a good thing.
Darren:
Thank you very much.
Ellie:
Thank you.
