Kylee Stone is the Founder of Team Women Australia, CEO of the Performance Code, the host of the Uncharted Leaders podcast and a coach and mentor in resilience and courageous leadership. She discusses how now, in the face of unprecedented uncertainty and disrupted work arrangements, leadership and resilience is key to ensuring the sustainability and performance of organisations. Kylee shares practical approaches she had honed in her coaching practice with individuals, teams and organisations to not just cope, but thrive in these uncertain times.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Today I’m sitting down with Kylee Stone, founder of Team Women Australia, CEO of the Performance Code, host of the Uncharted Leaders podcast and a coach and mentor in resilience and courageous leadership. Welcome, Kylee.
Kylee:
Thanks, Darren.
Darren:
This is interesting for me because we have known each other for quite a while. But I felt it was important to have this conversation especially now because more than ever with the Covid-19 people are under so much stress aren’t they?
Kylee:
The stress comes to the surface is what I’d say. A lot of the stress has been there for a very long time but it’s when we see a crisis like this that all of a sudden it becomes more obvious.
Darren:
I’ve seen on social media an increase in people saying I actually feel less alone because there’s a sense now that we’re all in this together whereas perhaps the stress that has always been there has been isolating stress whereas at the moment it seems to be more collective stress.
Kylee:
Absolutely, and it’s a shame to feel that is the case, that my circumstances don’t feel so bad as long as everybody else is in the same boat. It does unite. You can look at any tragedy over the years and one of the things that’s very common as a human being is that whenever there is a global crisis, a pandemic, 9/11, people really do unite and they find in fact we think we’re alone when we’re going through things independently but the truth is we’re never really going through them alone. So it only becomes obvious that we’re not alone when these things do happen.
Darren:
Do you think it’s quite an Anglo-Saxon thing for people to keep their worries to themselves? One of the things that always annoys me is when you ask someone how’s business going? ‘Oh’ good’ and you’re thinking ‘really, because I’m doing really badly’ and then they let it out. This thing of ‘stay calm’.
Kylee:
Yes, make sure you present like things are going pretty well. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s an Anglo-Saxon thing. I think there are cultures that are a little more open about those things but being somebody who’s got an Aboriginal background and does mix with a lot of diverse background people it really is a human being trait.
As human beings we tend to feel like we don’t want to burden other people with our problems and then, as a result, they become our own problems. But I found the same thing. When I went back to work after having three kids and it was probably my first experience of really struggling; how do I juggle this fulltime job, leadership position?
Media, at the time, was at the peak of digital disruption, restructuring going on, everyone fearful of losing their jobs, and I had three kids under 3 and I went back to work and they wanted me full-time. I didn’t want full-time. And I thought, what am I going to do here?
I negotiated a part-time job but within a couple of months I was so pissed off because all of a sudden there I was; I had worked 20 years to get to that level and it wasn’t as though my brain wasn’t capable of continuing at that level but I lost all the parts of the job that I loved.
I lost the leadership aspects, authority, the team, sitting in an office all by myself—and I thought to myself, this aint right. That was the point I started speaking the truth. I’d bump into the same old people at the coffee shop—‘oh how’re you going?’ and I’d go ‘pretty shit actually’. And they’d be shocked.
Darren:
You have always appeared to me as someone who speaks the truth. It’s such a paradox that you say it’s the human condition not to share our problems and yet the human condition is also to be incredibly social.
Kylee:
I have been doing the work around personal transformation for individuals now since 2001—that was when I first started. And over that time if there was one common thread it was the paradox of life itself. It is a paradox that we as human beings most desire a connection with others but by default as a survival mechanism we do the opposite. There are opposites all over the place.
Darren:
I often find the most charismatic leaders have an openness and an approachability and it comes from a perception of honesty or sharing of themselves. I know courageous leadership is an area you’re particularly interested in. Is that part of that persona to be a leader?
Kylee:
Yeah, I do think it is. And I do think it comes with a few caveats. It’s one thing to be open and transparent for example. Culturally a lot of people expect people to be transparent and honest, then it becomes about what’s appropriate because as a leader our job is also to ensure we are building and instilling confidence in the people around us.
It wouldn’t be appropriate to air all your dirty laundry for example. What we have to be careful about is what does transparency look like and how does that show up in different places? It’s one thing in a small business; it’s one thing in a large organisation because the thing we don’t have control over is the reaction when we do say what we say.
We can only control what we say but we can’t predict or control how people interpret what we say.
Darren:
I think what I didn’t emphasise enough is that they create this appearance. They create this sense of approachability and belonging. It’s said that leadership is incredibly lonely; ‘it’s lonely at the top’.
Kylee:
Yes, I hear that a lot. It is lonely because we haven’t addressed the one fundamental thing that is in the way of that, which is when we get there, there is a view that we have to have everything handled, which prevents us from surrounding ourselves with people who ensure it’s not lonely.
When I made that leap from not having staff to having staff and then the next level up I felt like I had to have it all handled. What happens with that is you stop sharing yourself more openly and you put that barrier in.
But collaboration is one of the key things. It’s one of the critical elements of resilience so you’ve got to surround yourself with people at the right levels for the right things to achieve your goals and by doing that you don’t have the experience of being alone.
Darren:
I know from personal experience some of the best leaders are the ones who will ask for advice but you get the sense that they ultimately make the decision but you also feel included because you have a voice in at least informing that decision.
Kylee:
Yeah, this brings up for me the issue around the hierarchical view as leaders. We’ve been born into an era when leadership has been isolated to those who have particular titles, they sit at the top of an organisation and therefore they’ve got to keep certain things to themselves but that’s a great point about leadership.
Leadership is ultimately about how you mobilise a team of people so it’s not whether you’re sitting in a certain role or not. Great leaders understand that we’re all human beings and that there are certain strengths and attributes that people have no matter where they sit in an organisation.
In fact, rule 101 in change management is that you identify leaders across the entire organisation no matter where they sit. If they’ve got a title or don’t have a title people have different strengths. Some people are great influencers, some are great at social stuff; it’s about how do I tap into those unique strengths? And then use those people to demonstrate leadership based on those things.
Darren:
And leadership seems to be one of those things that there is a lot written about. And there are a lot of people sharing their advice but what would be the approach that you take as a leader? Team Women Australia is about providing women especially with the framework and support to be the leaders they can be isn’t it?
Kylee:
The approach I take is how does one express their own leadership rather than looking for what you think you should be doing as a leader. There is no textbook theory. I have done a lot of research and I read this article once by a guy who does a lot of work with leadership development with Harvard, saying exactly that.
Even the experts in the area of leadership don’t agree; there’s no one size fits all approach when it comes to what’s right versus what’s not right. Even the podcasts I’ve been doing lately—one of the questions I ask at the end of every podcast is what does a leader look like to you? And everybody has a unique view on it.
The thing that is common is that people, when they realise their own strengths, talents, what’s important to them and they pursue a cause that they’re passionate about they find that moving towards that future is what demonstrates the attributes of leadership, which is really about uniting people towards a common goal.
Darren:
And achieving outstanding results that you as an individual alone may never have been able to achieve.
Kylee:
That’s right and how does one identify and tap into what’s truly important as an individual and then how do you get that to work in a group dynamic because the pitfall in an organisation is to focus on the organisation’s purpose, vision and values, which is all great but then you need to make sure you’re matching that up with how to ensure that an individual aligns with that so that they’re all working towards the same thing.
Darren:
When most people talk about leadership they talk about the CEO but in fact, within marketing the leader may not even be just the CMO but there can be leaders across the whole marketing function. And it’s really important that those people are given the support to be the best leaders they can be in those roles.
Kylee:
Absolutely, if you do the work with individuals. When I was in my marketing director days we had a team with about 14 in very different areas of expertise. We had analysts and creative people, marcoms, and sponsorship people but as a team we united a lot.
But the thing I noticed worked for me specifically was ensuring that when it came to them expressing their individual leadership it was doing the one on one work; having them look at their individual talents, strengths, and goals. And when they’re at work at that on themselves people just become better human beings so it’s much easier to get on as a group when you do that work.
Darren:
A lot of the agendas and insecurities are put aside. How many times have you walked into a corporate meeting and they’ll say something like leave your egos at the door when you come into this meeting because we’re going to be brainstorming ideas and then immediately everyone takes a hierarchical position based on their titles?
These glib phrases and techniques in some ways undermine the whole concept of developing leadership don’t they?
Kylee:
Absolutely. In scenarios like that I think the best thing we can do is park your role at the door. I’m reminded of my own culture as an Aboriginal woman and the value and strength of community leadership, which is ultimately that everybody does have a voice and a unique perspective no matter what you do and where you come from.
And being able to utilise those differences is quite valuable because we just never know what kind of gold is going to come out of somebody’s mouth. Everybody’s got a very different background and set of experiences and the real gold does come from giving everybody the opportunity to actually contribute.
Darren:
But isn’t the problem that a lot of our business culture and structures have come from a military background. The hierarchical structure, the siloes, these are all things that the military have used for the last 2,000 years. I think it was the Roman legions that were the first ones in battle to create these structures and we still live with that today. And we see it so many times.
The bigger the organisation the more likely they are to have these very traditional structures that actually suppress individual leadership because it has to give way to the hierarchy.
Kylee:
Yeah and I do think we’re in an interesting time because there is a massive growth in start-ups and community organisations and even the default when we start those organisations is to create a hierarchical structure—we’re so trained to do that. Until we have a new model it is impossible to throw out the old model so it is about experimenting with what works.
Start-ups have a much better place to come from because they’re creating from scratch but in an organisation where it’s been there forever and a day it’s a lot harder to make changes in those areas. It’ about how do we, in the current environment, system and infrastructure mobilise individuals to remove those barriers.
That’s why, in the last 12 months or so, I’ve gone deeper into the neuroscience of resilience because how do you collectively use the environment and structures we’ve got for the value they do provide but, at the same time, have an individual show up in a way that removes the barriers so they can express themselves or be courageous or speak up in a meeting without worrying if the CEO is there or not. How do we do those things despite what’s happening in the external environmental structure?
Darren:
I was going to ask you about this relationship between leadership and resilience. Clearly it’s a passion for you. And when you talk about it like just then it becomes who you are. For people who are listening to this wondering what’s the connection? In the simplest terms what do you think the connection is between resilience and leadership?
Kylee:
Simply, it’s how do we advance in life towards what we want despite all the adversity going on around us. That’s it.
Darren:
Fantastic. That’s a beautiful definition.
Kylee:
We’ve all got goals, desires and dreams right? In a business we’ve got targets and performance metrics that we need to achieve and as leaders of an organisation we have outcomes we need to accomplish. And as a human being we have ways that we desire to operate.
As a parent I have an objective or a goal to make sure I’m a compassionate human being when my children are throwing tantrums. We all have a desire to produce a certain outcome whether it’s a business outcome or not. And yet there are things that get in the way of us being able to express that. And then we have plenty of reasons why we can’t achieve it.
If we’re off our target in business performance we have plenty of reasons why that’s not the case; oh well all the clients or the economy are blah, blah, blah. And then when we’re not being compassionate in our relationships; yeah but they said something that was…. We’ve got plenty of reasons why.
The resilience aspect in leadership is simply saying there are some specific things we can do to mitigate the barriers and it’s been proven. There was a research piece done over a few years that identified 6 specific things that we can be at work on that will help us remove the barriers to operating consistently with what we say we want.
I am so passionate about resilience because all of a sudden it gives absolute clarity over what someone can do in a very simple way because most people just go ‘oh yeah, you need to be more resilient’ but what is that? Just toughen up? No, not just toughen up and get over yourself.—no it’s not about that.
Darren:
Like leadership, resilience is the flavour of the month on LinkedIn. How many people have this title of resilience coach or leadership coach? Mark Ritson had a bit of a rant recently on LinkedIn where he said that when you read the stuff they’re putting out there you’d think you just need some essential oils and massage and apparently it will all be hunky dory but, as he points out, leadership is tough.
Running a business, leading a group of people is a tough gig and no amount of holistic healing is going to make that any easier. So, your point about practical steps that people can take must be essential.
Kylee:
Darren you know me. I’ve always been a little bit sensitive about going out on social media. It was the same thing when I started Team Women Australia it really was an organic thing that came from mentoring other women and really wanting to deal with the barriers that were in the way for them to advance.
It was just a very straight conversation. And then after a couple of years we had some great events and then I got really nervous about marketing again and talking about the whole women thing again. I didn’t want to get pigeonholed into this is just about women getting together at an event and having a great time and I don’t want to be just about women because that wasn’t the point.
It’s the same thing with resilience. It’s not just about going out and having a retreat, a few massages and being all positive. Nothing irritates me more than just be happy. Are you kidding me? I have quite the opposite view. I read this fabulous book that I recommend to everybody especially during today’s times by a woman called Pema Chodron. Globally, she is recognised as one of the leading experts on compassion and she’s written a book called When things fall apart.
And I was going through a really difficult patch a couple of years ago and I went away for two weeks just to get away from the home environment with 3 kids to really feel like I had the space to go through some stuff. Sometimes you’ve got to remove yourself from the current environment to get some clarity so I did that and that was the one book.
It was recommended by a dear friend of mine who has ironically been in the area of neuroscience and leadership for a long time. The thing that really struck a chord with me was the very first part of the book talked about not trying to run away from how we feel and what things really are like. And rather to breathe into the difficulties and just stay present and being ok with the difficulty rather than thinking you’ve got to make things rosy and happy. And I was like that’s really great. It’s actually ok that I feel like a piece of shit right now.
Darren:
It’s acknowledging your emotions, understanding that they’re not necessarily true but at least acknowledging the validity of them and then being able to step back from those and seeing them for what they are.
Kylee:
It is all of that. They are valid, they are real and, in fact, the reason they’re real is because they’re trying to tell you something. And that was the thing I noticed for myself. You’re feeling angry, hurt, betrayed, upset for a reason. If you suppress that or try and run away from it and don’t want to feel that how are you going to deal with what’s actually there to be dealt with? It’s a hard one to deal with.
Darren:
But also, as a leader, it’s really hard if you react on your emotions as often you’ll overreact.
Kylee:
That’s exactly right.
Darren:
So you’ve got to be able to acknowledge it, put it there and then step back and see it for what it is so you can then work out the appropriate response. I’ve been guilty of that so many times, of responding too quickly before I’ve been able to acknowledge what it is that’s actually causing that.
Kylee:
There are two things I’d say about that. Firstly, absolutely, you have to, especially now when times are very difficult, know how to pause and stop and think prior to reacting but it’s not always easy to do that. And the reason it is not easy to do that is because we’re not making time for ourselves to do that in the space of our own life.
And we need to make sure we’re making room in our life outside of when we go to work to be able to do that because we have a lot going on. Things are moving quicker than they’ve ever been before.
Darren:
I just want to pick up on that because a lot of people are working from home and one of the issues here is isolation because the social get-togethers of coming to an office and interacting with people—people feel isolated in their own homes.
Kylee:
That would be a perfect example of what I was saying about identifying the emotion or experience that is there. Once you’ve identified the emotion or experience, the experience of being isolated or alone—great, what are some of the solutions? What are some of the practical things you can do?
Mostly, people just get stuck there, Darren. It’s the same as leaders when they feel alone and they say I just feel alone. I like to call it the A Game—I have 3 As. The first is acknowledgement. Acknowledge how you feel and what’s present. Accountability is the next one.
We can’t necessarily change what’s going on around us but we do have a say about what we do next. So that’s the next step, given that I know I feel isolated, what is the one thing I could do that would eliminate my feelings of isolation? What’s going to work for me?
We can’t say it’s the same for everybody. I’m an introvert so I don’t want to get into workshops online, I don’t want to go to the pub so I look from my perspective what is the one thing I could do to not have the experience of doing that?
I have about 3 people in my immediate community as a leader who I will go to. I’ll pick up the phone, get on a Zoom chat or Google Hangout and have a chat. In fact I do it every day now. I do daily stand-ups with one of my business partners—10 o’clock every morning we meet on the phone—15 minutes. We debrief about what’s the one thing we want to accomplish today. What’s the one thing that’s going to get in the way and what is our commitment in terms of our value.
The 3rd A is action. The 2nd one is about identifying what works for you in the face of what’s going on. The final one is take the action. Take the action despite what you think, how you feel or what you believe. Mostly we don’t take action because we think something is going to happen or if I do this this will happen or not happen. Or I feel too nervous.
I understand but take the action anyway because when we take the action we realise we’re much stronger than we give ourselves credit for.
Darren:
The other thing that I’m getting feedback from people working from home (people working for big organisations especially) is loss of control, and it occurs in 2 ways. The first way is where someone is a manager and they feel they’ve lost control of their people because they no longer have that physical proximity.
And also the individuals are feeling a loss of control because they’re no longer in their work environment where they feel there is a structure. They’re now at home where there could be children, partners, neighbours, friends that are all interrupting. There are all these distractions. What is it about people and control?
Kylee:
There are 2 things you’ve pointed out—I want to separate them. The 1st one is the experience of losing control because of people not being in the workplace. Firstly it’s an illusion. The fact that you think you had control in the organisation just because you happened to be there is not true.
In fact, there is something else underlying it that you’re not acknowledging in that environment itself that gives you control, whether it’s credibility, trust and belief in people. Those things are in existence. Those things are an illusion that you think that has created control. That’s the first thing.
It’s the same with certainty. Control and certainty are both illusions. We can’t predict anything. We can’t even predict what’s coming out of our own mouth sometimes let alone what we think somebody else is going to do. If you think you’re going to get control just because somebody is sitting in front of you, you are kidding yourself.
You don’t know the reality of what they’re doing in the background at all. I’m always one for replacing what is there with something else. Every time I see that thing about lack of control there is a direct correlation with lack of trust. If you experience lack of control then look at what you could create in the area of trust.
Trust in yourself, number one, and trusting others. That’s the first part. The 2nd part is about at home where we feel like we don’t have control. I get it. I have 3 kids and even this morning as I’m trying to do work they’re in the background wanting to play this computer and do this and I’ve got to set some rules.
Darren:
I’ve had this option of working from home for 20 years. In fact I’ve encouraged it in the business. And you’ve been managing and running your own businesses largely from home for many years. But can you imagine, for people who have gone from a very corporate structure, going to work every day, turning up, spending time in the office, going to lunch, suddenly being thrown back into the home environment.
Kylee:
It’s not easy.
Darren:
You and I are coping with everyday life with an extra layer of anxiety around the unknown but I can imagine for people say in large marketing departments, large agencies, big companies, these must be unusual and quite scary times.
Kylee:
Very scary, uncertain and unprecedented. I’ve heard the word unprecedented a lot and it is unprecedented. And it’s times like this I think the number 1 thing is compassion. I can’t iterate that enough—just be kinder to yourself and reduce the expectations that you put on yourself and everybody else because it is not easy.
I have been doing this, working from home for quite a number of years and at that stage it was a lot harder to deal with things and having the kids on top of it. Without even worrying about what are some of the simple things you can do the first thing is just give yourself a god damn break.
On the TV this morning there was a comment about if you really need to step back for a moment and just relax then just do that in the knowledge that allowing yourself the space to do that, eventually—see when I give myself a break, even 10 minutes in the morning to mediate (I mean just deep breathing, not thinking by counting because that’s often the only way I can meditate) but the moment after doing that my level of self-motivation returns and clarity about what I need to do and how to do that comes back.
I recommend that for sure. Everyone’s situation is different but you do need to sit down and look at what is going to work best for you and everybody else in the house. It’s not just us as individuals that we need to contend with. Everybody in the house (5 of us in mine) I’ve got to take into account what also supports them.
It’s no good for me to just put in the rules –9 to 5, don’t talk to me despite the fact that that’s what would work for me. But I’ve got to look at well I’ve got a 13-year old, a 9-year old, an 11-year old and a husband and how does that work for them?
It’s 2-fold. What can I do as an individual and then what can we do as a team to support each other so it works for all of us?
Darren:
I also think the whole idea of control is another illusion. There are certain things you have control over. You have control over yourself as far as the things you do. But it’s expectation, either your own or the expectations of others that cause the conflict for people. I’ll give you a great example.
One of the people who does our marketing. When I wake up in the morning they will often have sent me emails saying they’ve finished the work—and that’ll be 2 or 3 in the morning because they’re night people. During the day she spends time with her children and then does her work at night when the husband is there looking after the children.
To me that’s brilliant. I’ve now adjusted my expectation that if I ask for something during the day I know it will happen overnight. Expectation seems to be the source of so much pain in life and particularly in business and particularly during these times.
Kylee:
Yep, it expands in these times because our expectations increase on ourselves. And I think that’s where we do not go looking. We have a default, to think it’s about our expectations that we put on others. But the reason we put high expectations on others in the first place is because we put high expectations on ourselves.
If we need to impact the expectation out here with others then the very first place to start is where are you putting unrealistic expectations on yourself and start making changes there. I’ve seen it time and time again. When we deal with that at the level of self the level of compassion and the expectations we put on others eases.
Darren:
You talk about compassion. Is this part of having more compassion for ourselves and others?
Kylee:
100%. People talk publicly about being compassionate but then in the background they’re really annoyed and frustrated. That’s not really compassion because that’s not really connecting with what’s going on for people.
Darren:
So compassion, like charity, starts at home?
Kylee:
Yes, 100%. What’s the point in being all nice and friendly with people if you walk home and are really nasty to your partner, your kids or even yourself.
Darren:
I love this because it’s quite practical. The 3 As, look at expectations, and then look at what works for you and make that work. They’re the key cornerstones of what you’re doing here. This is work you’ve been doing for individuals, for teams, corporations isn’t it?
Kylee:
That’s right. One on one I do individuals. Team-wise—facilitation of groups upwards of 60, and then organisations. I’m working at the moment with a tool that allows group dashboards and things like that. As a leader, for example, you can have an entire team do these individual reports and assessments to give their ratings but because it’s a virtual model they can work as individuals. And at the same time, leaders can get a dashboard that gives an overall score on how the whole team is going.
Darren:
This is the work you do through Performance Code whereas Team women Australia is more about creating a collective, a community of support is it?
Kylee:
It’s two-fold. Firstly, in the background, it’s mentoring, it’s about diversity and community. One of the things I noticed especially for women is when you have a diverse mix of women from different areas, backgrounds and experiences sharing their experiences in terms of what they’ve done, how they’ve mitigated and what they’re dealing with and being truthful about some of the obstacles, it elevates everyone.
Everyone finds some value in what they’ve shared and then as a result of doing that they find they take action. It’s the application of the 3 As. But the sharing of the diverse stories is one thing that helps women and the 2nd part is we’re actually in the process of launching our online mentoring platform.
We’ve been running mentoring programmes but finding that the face to face thing is very challenging and you don’t get as much diversity. Online they still get the value of the diversity, they can still share stories but it does an algorithm where it matches people off on their talents, strengths, and values and then they can connect with a mentor should they choose to do that.
That’s specifically on the women’s side but the Performance Code is my core business and that’s where I work specifically on applying what I’ve done there with women but in coaching, workshops, or online tools.
Darren:
This is on a corporate basis but there are great opportunities for marketing aren’t there? Marketing, in the last few years, has undergone such huge transformation and disruption.
Kylee:
I’m very passionate about marketing having been a marketer myself and still am. I worked up the ranks of marketing for a very long time and worked on a lot of restructures and transformation in marketing operations. I was there at the time of digital disruption. In fact, all the way through my career we had massive growth and innovation.
We went from black and white print to colour, onset to digital; rapid changes all the way through my career until the point of disruption. I was in that period where I had staff losing their jobs. We were all wiped out as a middle layer of management. I feel really passionate about the fact that we have all this incredible talent in marketing coming up; innovative, in digital. I’m mind-blown by their talent.
The thing I worry about is because we’ve lost that entire middle layer we no longer have these senior mature marketers who have been through some challenges and who can work with these people to mentor them through some of the more difficult complexities of how to get traction on their ideas in the face of the complexities of the environmental structures they work in.
This is why I’m specifically working with you in particular as TrinityP3 because we have a wealth of talent we can bring in and mentor to have them optimise their skill set and creativity and innovation to get traction on those things.
Darren:
And this can all be done remotely—hands-free you could say.
Kylee:
Yeah, that’s right, which is what they want anyway, right. Most of them would prefer to work remotely and have the flexibility to be more agile. How do we tap into that more agile, flexible way of approaching it and tap into their incredible talent in a way that doesn’t have to follow the old model called being in the office?
Darren:
Exactly. Kylee Stone, thank you very much for making time to sit down and have a chat.
Kylee:
Thank you.
Darren:
Before you go, one last question. Of all of the leaders you’ve worked with, who is the most inspirational for you?
Ideal for marketers, advertisers, media and commercial communications professionals, Managing Marketing is a podcast hosted by Darren Woolley and special guests. Find all the episodes here
