Kristy Camarillo is the GM of The Royals Sydney; Rebecca Den Braber is the GM of Hatched; and Renee Murray is Head of People and Culture at Half Dome.
In this episode, Ellie Angell and the group discuss a wide range of DE&I topics, challenges, and opportunities, the changes happening in our industry, how effective we are at creating truly inclusive workplaces, our hopes for the future, and our lived experiences.
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I think I’ve spent most of my career avoiding diversity and inclusion groups or initiatives. And I think one of the reasons why I have is because I never really felt quite connected
Transcription:
Ellie:
My name is Ellie Angell, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
And remember, if you are enjoying the Managing Marketing podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week.
And today is a special group podcast, my first ever. So, be gentle with me, everybody. And we are focusing on the theme of diversity in agencies which is something that we haven’t talked about a huge amount on this podcast, but it’s something that’s so fundamentally important, particularly now more than ever really, it’s fundamentally important to agency life.
And I’m delighted to be joined by three industry leaders who are dedicated to driving DE&I forwards in the industry and in their organization.
So, in no particular order, I welcome Renee Murray, head of people and culture at the media agency, Half Dome; Rebecca den Braber, who is general manager at the media agency, Hatched; and Kristy Camarillo, who is head of people and culture at the advertising agency, The Royals.
Did I get all of those name pronunciations right? Thank you all for joining me.
Rebecca:
Thanks, Ellie. Very excited to be here.
Kristy:
Thanks for having me.
Ellie:
You’re more than welcome.
Renee:
Very excited.
Ellie:
Very excited. Well, that’s good. So, I’d like to start by you guys giving me a quick history lesson because I’m really interested in the different career backgrounds of people who became people in culture leads or DE&I leads.
And it didn’t exist when I started my career. It probably didn’t exist when you started. And I’m probably older than all of you, but when you started your careers, it might not have existed.
And I recognize that in your background as I’ve met you and talked to you, there’s already some career diversity, which is interesting to explore. So, it would be great to hear each of your stories in this regard. Renee, maybe if I start with you.
Renee:
Yeah, sure, Ellie. I share exactly the same experience. There was no such thing as people and culture leaders when I was climbing, I guess, the ranks.
I’ve got a retail background and I’m a little bit new to the media industry. So, 18 months in, but previously I was predominantly retail and operational roles. So, GM and COO roles where this may resonate with all of us on the call is that that came with all things people.
So, there was probably dare I say, an error of maybe arrogance and ignorance forever ago that if you had a HR team, you had problems. So, it was best perhaps not to have one of those and to leave it to the people that looked after the operations to navigate through all things legislation, strategy, initiatives.
So, I think just by virtue of that, I sort of became well, didn’t even realize at the time that I really was in that people and culture space because it was such a key component of my role.
And developing high performing teams, successful teams across multinational roles, you really sort of have to develop those interpersonal people skills and understand how to get the best out of everyone. So, that’s sort of, I guess my work experience background.
I then said to myself after a couple of kids and I guess this is where my diversity radar or inclusion radar came on, was that how on earth do I hold down one of these big roles in the retail space and I’m expected to be on a plane every second day with two kids that need me?
So, I sought a desk job, and by that I thought I must go and certify my skills. So, I went back and did an MBA in HR. So, that sort of, I guess what I felt I needed to validate all my 20 years of experience.
And that wasn’t that long ago because then COVID happened. And at the same time I decided not only will I change role, I moved into the not-for-profit space. And I did three years not for profit sector through COVID in a pretty senior new people and culture role.
So, yeah, then I was absolutely delighted to come across into the media space and hopefully apply all of the knowledge I’ve learned in the last many decades.
Ellie:
Yeah, I love the diversity of that background in terms of coming across the media agencies relatively late in your career. And I know from having talked to you that that brings a different perspective. It’s fascinating when you talk about HR departments being seen as risk avoidance.
I mean, it’s incredible now to think about it, but I also, think what you highlighted also talks to the difference between a people and culture or a DE&I lead and the HR function as it was traditionally the people who sent out the job specs and deal with seating issues and stuff.
I mean, like it’s expanded so much from there and it’s become a separate discipline, I think. But yeah, that-
Kristy:
Renee, I also love the fact that you said, I’m going to go for a desk job. So, you did an MBA, you managed to achieve an MBA while having two young kids. Yeah.
Renee:
It’s funny the things we put ourselves through. It’s-
Ellie:
You really took the easy route there, didn’t you? I mean, there’s no easy way there.
Well, look, that’s going to be fascinating to hear from, Renee, I think with your specific experience. Rebecca, I know you’ve had a different background. So, talk to us about your background.
Rebecca:
Yeah, thanks, Ellie. I have had a very different background. So, I’ve been in media agency for the last, I think it’s coming up to 17 or 18 years. So, a long time. Similar to you, I’ve been part of the industry when HR departments were really just HR departments.
And to be really candid, as someone who does come from a South Asian background, I think I’ve spent most of my career avoiding diversity and inclusion groups or initiatives.
And I think one of the reasons why I have is because I never really felt quite connected or really inspired by a lot of the initiatives that were coming through. And this is going back maybe 10, 15 years ago. So, it was really different.
I think when I started at Hatched, one of the initiatives that we had in the organization was the development of a shadow board. And one of the initiatives that came out of that shadow board was to develop a belonging and connections team.
So, interestingly for me, my experience, these initiatives didn’t come from HR, or they didn’t come from leadership. They came from a generation that was probably 10 years younger than me.
And I remember it was Raesh Chail, who’s now our people and culture director. She was part of the shadow board. This was something that was really passionate for her. And when she set up the belonging and connections group within Hatched, she approached me and asked me if I wanted to be part of it.
And it was something I always really deeply cared about, but never really found the right avenue to have impact.
But when I sat down with Raesh and she talked to me about the vision and what she wanted it to be at Hatched, I think for the first time in my career, I felt really excited and really inspired by some of the work and the initiatives that she wanted to create. And that’s how I lent into it officially.
But similar to Kristy and Renee, I think just by nature of my role, being a general manager, you can’t avoid not being connected into people. And you can’t avoid not always thinking about how people belong into the agency and whether you’re really truly driving inclusion within the business.
So, that’s been my pathway into this space.
Ellie:
Thank you. I mean, so much we can unpack there. I know that we’ve had separate conversations about your cultural background, and some of the intersectionality between your experiences and my experiences as a trans woman.
Very, very different, obviously, but some commonality of experience in terms of the way that people view you or see you.
And certainly that when you said there, I used to avoid, and for want of a better term, DE&I generally, even though that term didn’t necessarily exist back in the day, avoiding it because there was nothing in it, very similar to me. I mean, there was nothing that I would’ve ever resonated with in that space in years gone by.
And I love that idea of the shadow board and the fact that these ideas are coming out of the next generation of people, is so valid, isn’t it? It’s so relevant to shaping what needs to be shaped.
And I think younger people are so much more aware. That’s been my experience as a trans woman. Younger people are so much more aware and willing to accept, generally speaking.
That’s not to say that older people aren’t, it’s just to say that younger people have a preset that really helps these kind of initiatives and really helps that kind of movement. So, that’s a fascinating insight from you.
Kristy, no pressure, and certainly not last but not least, let’s be intrigued by your career and your wonderful progression over at The Royals.
Kristy:
Thanks, Ellie. Well, yeah, they’re two tough acts to follow, so I will hide my imposter syndrome.
But no, look, my background, I was actually a suit at indie and multinational agencies, both here in Australia and overseas.
And when I had my first child, my daughter, (almost nine years ago now, which is just crazy) part-time client service roles just didn’t really even exist. She was nine months old, and I was on mat leave and I was expected to go back originally part-time, but they wanted me to come back full-time.
And it was in the heyday of very crazy hours, as you know, we worked hard, we played hard, but I knew I was still so passionate about the industry and staying in it.
And almost serendipitously just after exiting, deciding I wasn’t going to go back into my suit role, The Royals had actually a two day a week at the time, a role as a talent manager. I’d never done anything like that before.
And it was mainly focusing on talent acquisition at the time which I’d never done, but equally, to have in-house people and culture roles, just wasn’t even a thing.
But The Royals have always been a people-centric business that our culture has been baked into our DNA from day one. It’s something that they’ve always really, really believed in. And so, they created this role.
And then from there, it’s just really continued to grow and evolve from talent acquisition to talent retention, to learning and development, employee engagement, management as well as operations. We’ve helped like navigate the business through COVID.
I’ve studied a HR diploma since then. I done Seth Godin’s altMBA. And the people in culture space in the last seven years has just absolutely exploded.
And so, beyond just a part-time job, (I’m using my in-quotation marks) I’ve really forged a whole new rewarding career path with The Royals. Always supporting me in parenthood. I’ve got two little ones now as well as advancing my career and just carving out just a space that I just absolutely love. And can’t think of doing anything different now, to be honest.
Ellie:
Look, and it’s really interesting, three slightly different perspectives. And you’ve sort of moved into it gradually.
And I mean, another MBA, I can’t. I mean, I feel your imposter syndrome, but my imposter syndrome is through the roof right now, because we’ve got MBAs all over the place. But I mean, that’s amazing.
And I do think there’s a shout out to all three of the agencies you represent because they are all three of them progressive.
And I see a lot of agencies and there’s no disrespect involved to any other agency, but I know that you three or all of those three agencies have always been quite focused on the people and culture space. So, it’s fantastic that these three roots in have brought you to very similar positions.
Kristy:
And I think what’s so lovely is that agencies are businesses that were early adopters of that, I mean, it’s so valued and sought after now. It’s so important. And we’ve only seen that there’s foundations at the start years back now, to benefit so many people and businesses.
Ellie:
And in doing so, you’re able to really kickstart some initiatives and take action and do more than just speak and actually make things happen in your businesses. And I wanted to ask you about that. I wanted to ask you about initiatives in this space.
We’ve mentioned it, but when I started, and I think when you started too, these concepts really just didn’t exist. And certainly, speaking as trans women, if they had existed and had been set up with the full range of diversity that they are now, I’d certainly have benefited earlier in my life and career.
There’s no doubt about it. My life would’ve been actually quite profoundly different. And that shows the power of the working environment on people’s wellbeing.
Aside from your specific in-agency roles, I mean, the industry as a whole has started to pick up the pace, I think regarding education and policy initiatives. And no doubt that combines with some of the work that you do in your organizations.
Do you see any particular standouts, maybe from industry bodies or from pioneering individuals? Is there anything that you’d love to see more of happening in the industry as a whole? Kristy let’s start with you because you were last before, so I don’t want you feel left out.
Kristy:
Thanks. I’ve got the talking stick.
Look, I think a standout for me is definitely the Creating Space census. I think the findings like with awareness of policies or procedures and what we’re so positive to see in terms of progress.
And I think probably beyond just the stats and the numbers that the action plan that they published in the most recent report, for me, it was excellent in terms of a roadmap for people. It was really clear and really simple.
And most importantly, it’s about taking measurable steps that all of us can implement to drive actual positive progress and systemic change.
I think what was jumped out at me was in that report, it was 90% of Australian companies now, have already embedded DEI programs into their organizations. We’ve got things like gold standards in parental leave, gender neutral. We’ve got fertility, we’ve got miscarriage.
And so, for me, that shows so much progress with the new policies such as domestic violence leave, investment in training, we’ve got things like being able to be flexible with your holidays to recognize cultural celebrations.
So, for me, we have come a long way in that space. Still a long way to go. It was disappointing with all the efforts and investment is that there’s other areas that are declining. But I think that’s just a reminder that we have to keep going.
Ellie:
I really like the integrity of how the report was published.
Kristy:
Me too. Yeah.
Ellie:
It’s easy to be a bit spinny and put focus on those positives. But I really like the commentary around, well, look, I mean, this is great, but look at this, average isn’t good enough and we need to try harder. I really thought that integrity was really strong in the way that was presented.
But absolutely, I think there’s certainly a lot to be positive about, but still clearly a long way to go. Beck, what do you think?
Rebecca:
Firstly, I agree with Kristy. I think that was one of my standout initiatives as well. I think just simply the fact that we have a survey to measure this is just a huge step forward.
Because you’re right, you can’t hide the good, you can’t hide the bad. But just simply having a consistent benchmark of what success should look like for the industry, I think is a huge step forward.
Because I think one of the biggest challenges in this space is, it’s so hard to know where the finish line is. It’s really complicated. It’s really complex, this space.
And as a business and organization, I think having access to this type of data is just so fundamental and it’s so important. So, I completely agree with Kristy. I think that was a great initiative.
I think other initiatives that I’ve seen this year, maybe late last year was the Shift 20 Initiative that was done by Dylan Alcott to raise awareness of having disabled people represented in media and advertising.
I thought that was a really brilliant, well executed initiative as well that actually drove some change. it just felt really ambitious, really putting himself out there. And I think that’s had also a lot of impact in the industry.
So, I love stuff like that that really pushes the envelope a little bit for the industry. I think it’s great.
Ellie:
Yeah, for sure. And look, I personally don’t think there is a finish line. And that’s the challenge. I think there is only evolution. But then evolution is enabled by the kind of initiatives you’re talking about, because without them, they’re all flying blind and everyone’s just sort of wandering around trying to work things out.
And I think these are great. They’re both great examples of the way in which we’re enabling ourselves to move forward for sure. Renee, what do you think?
Renee:
Well, with my fresh eyes, Ellie, I must say that the industry really impressed me with the importance around valuing culture and how that relates to not just performance, but that you could really, certainly joining Half Dome, I could feel that from day one.
And I have been in a number of different industries, and I think I would really commend the industry for being one that really values how important their people are and how that translates into people product. And what that really means for organizational agency success.
I probably was a little surprised that we weren’t more progressive in the DEI space as well. We’ve chatted a few times, you know I’m always going to be super honest.
And a huge part of that is the fact that we can become a little bit worried about what do we do. Bec, Kristy, you can totally relate to, we’ve never done enough in the P&C space.
We’re always judging ourselves for have we really made sure that that part of the strategy, whether it’s diversity and inclusion, whether it’s policy training, all of those things, it’s constantly evolving. And there’s a huge compliance piece.
You’re right, that organizations now, have an obligation to ensure that under the respected work bill, that we have a positive duty to eliminate sexual harassment, discrimination, victimization. So, no longer is this sort of something to sit in the background and tick and flick. It’s a really active area.
So, I just think that, Bec, you touched on earlier that the average age of our team coming through the ranks is younger and they’re guiding us. I think their expectations are something we’ve got to be just as acutely aware of as well too.
And, Ellie, this is, I guess, an opportunity to also say thank you. Because you say to me, what is the industry doing and where are we pioneering? And I say bringing groups like this together. And being early and allowing us to understanding more is really the things that are going to make the difference.
It’s a really sensitive area. And we might chat about it in a bit, but there’s this feeling of not doing enough. But there’s also, this feeling of we’ve got to do something.
So, maybe you don’t have a perfect DEI strategy. Again, we don’t want to sit in the background and think you’ve got to come up with something tomorrow, but just do something more tomorrow. Not necessarily develop an entire strategy, but lean in, ask your team as well too. I think that we sort of missed that opportunity.
Ellie:
Well, I’m glad that this isn’t being visually recorded because I’m furiously blushing over here. In amongst all of that wonderful commentary, that was a lovely thing to say.
Kristy:
When we talk about pioneering individuals, Ellie, I think you are paving the way for so many and creating that space with your going courageous journey.
Ellie:
Making it worse. Oh my God. But thank you. Okay, so, that’s amazing for you to say that.
I think trans awareness and trans issues are one very, very small part of what we’ve all been talking about. Let’s never forget that the people and culture and DE&I space is obviously much bigger than me, and it’s much bigger than transgender issues.
And I am speaking out a bit about it because I want to raise that awareness, because I want people who will be struggling like I did, who we can’t yet see, to become more confident or inspired or more understanding of how much this industry does want to embrace diversity.
And, Renee, it’s really interesting, and I’ve been astounded by the amount of positivity I’ve received, and it’s just a massive marker to say, as you say, we might not be there yet, there’s more that we can do.
But the natural inclination of this industry to want to embrace and learn about diversity in any way, shape, or form is hugely impressive in my little corner of that space, in my little sort of world.
And I think certainly, 10 years ago, I would not have had the same reaction. 10 years ago, Beck, I’m sure you would’ve had different experiences as a woman of color, as a woman with a diverse cultural background. So, I’m hugely encouraged by that.
And I certainly don’t agree with you that I’m a pioneer, but if one person listens to this, reads an article I’ve written, listens to you wonderful people talking about interactions you’ve had with that trans woman you’ve just met.
And I think these are spaces, whatever the space is, whatever part of the diversity landscape that you sit in as an individual, it’s always much more complex than people can ever understand.
And part of good DE&I policy in my opinion without an MBA, part of my opinion is that the more that these policies can account for that and make people their own stakeholders in those journeys and make it so that there’s a very much a two-way communication between that individual and the organization as opposed to just top down policy making, the better.
And all three of you are huge representations of that. So, back at you, you are all pioneers too, quite frankly. We can all be pioneers together.
And it does lead me to … and let’s move out of the emotional stuff for a bit and I’ll recover my composure after all those lovely comments. But no, I think let’s look at it from the other end of the lens.
Lots to do, lots of initiatives, lots of great stuff, lots of good intention. But it is easy to get it wrong. I do think it’s easy to get it wrong. And it’s part of what I meant by making people their own stakeholders in their journey and having that two-way flow of information, not just relying on policies because everyone is individual.
And a criticism that is often being leveled at organizations is the existence of tokenism. Whether it’s tick box, like we sort of mentioned, or whether it’s the catchall … the sort of the cliche now, is the cupcakes and International Women’s Day it’s like …
The stereotype associated with that for a start, in my personal opinion, is not all altogether positive. And its value as a tokenism thing is debatable. But some tokens but just by virtue of being visible can be extremely valuable to people.
I’ve had a lifetime of moving through the world as a trans woman, and that comes with challenges. And if I walk into a pub or if I walk into an office just seeing a rainbow flag and a sign saying … I mean, that’s actually just a token, but it’s hugely reassuring to me as a person walking in. If I was looking for a job in that organization, it would be hugely reassuring.
So, it’s really interesting to sort of pull that about a bit. That sort of specific day of the year stuff, the sign on the restroom door.
What do you guys think about that balance between what’s just visible in token and what is actually meaningful in generating support and awareness and making people feel at ease? Who was last? Renee, talk to us. What do you think?
Renee:
Sure, sure. So, I love this. This is exactly what I was talking about, where us P&C leaders, we can debate around what do we do, what don’t we do, are we doing enough? And I guess I just want to say that yes, things can be viewed as tokenistic, but don’t not do anything.
I do think that we’ve moved past cupcakes, which is wonderful. And I still think that they have a place and that they are the thing to do when we need to do them. But let’s celebrate women every day. Let’s not just get cupcakes and commend those voices once a year.
So, I think that one of the things that I’d probably encourage and advise is have a think about what are the things that are really important to your organization right now and know that those will shift.
So, part of that DEI strategy is that you can’t set and forget. We’ve just said, sure, there’s policy creation and there’s a compliance piece, but there’s also, the workforce is moving. It’s aging in some, and it’s right down the other.
And we’ve got team that are joining us every day that their expectations, they’re coming out of environments where they’re far more educated in some of this space than we even can begin to understand.
So, I think I really want to encourage people not to be thinking about gosh, will this land in a tokenistic manner because it’s certainly not the intention, but go and ask the question.
So, perhaps you have got a queer employee at work, go and have a chat. “Hey, we’ve got pride month coming up. What do you think we should do? What are the things that we could do that are really going to resonate?”
And I think we’ve just got to really connect it back to our people and just be really humble and real that that’s going to keep moving. So, yeah, I think that-
Ellie:
Look, yeah, I hear you. I mean, again, it comes back to that two-way dialogue. I personally think that if asking a queer person about pride, I think people may well be surprised at some of the answers. I think it’s very easy to sort of assume what a person would want out of it.
I certainly I’m on the rainbow, but what I want out of pride would be very different from someone who’s a different age from me, who is on the rainbow based on sexual orientation versus gender identity, who is from a different background from me, a different city from me, all of that sort of stuff.
So, I think it is easy to fall into that trap of catchall, “Oh, look, they’re all going to just love the glitter and rainbow, and let’s celebrate pride.” It’s not necessarily so. In some way as not all women like cupcakes.
But yeah, absolutely, it’s just so common sense to make sure that people are being consulted and that it’s an ongoing process.
Renee:
Yeah. And I think, Ellie, it doesn’t matter who I’ve spoken to, and I know we’ve had the conversation as well too, that it’s, I say, sort of be brave to these P&C leaders or executives in organizations to have those conversations.
I think we’re sometimes so fearful of offending or saying the wrong thing. But by not having those conversations I actually think that we’re offending far more.
Ellie:
That’s a really important thing to say. I mean, when I came out to … I don’t actually like that term, but I can’t think of a better one right now. When I came out to the industry, it was one of the first things I said to TrinityP3 was, “The worst thing you can do is tread on eggshells around me.”
“Don’t worry too hard about saying the wrong thing or making mistakes because at the end of the day, anyone with common sense and empathy knows that the intent will not be malicious.”
And so, I think that’s really, really important and people do get too sensitive and that inhibits progress as opposed to driving it forward. Kristy, what do you think about this debate?
Kristy:
Yeah, look, I completely agree with Renee. I think it’s definitely not a set and forget, it’s not a one size fits all. And for me, feeling like you’re truly seen, and you have meaningful support can be really different to everyone.
To some, it might be as subtle as just creating a safe space where staff can voice concerns or share what’s going on for them.
For example, domestic violence leave is one thing, but it’s equally important that we train managers on how to identify those that might be most at risk. That may not feel actually comfortable speaking up or saying anything at work or coming forward.
For others it might be purely having a choice, like we talked about the celebration, holidays, and changing leave, and letting people know, even maybe before they even start with us, where the pre-boarding and onboarding, actually, what are the days that are most important to you? And then we might be able to plot that into their personal development plan.
I think to, again, to echo Renee’s point, it’s about the most important thing is that we ask and we actively listen to our people. We don’t just assume, we get their input.
Ellie, I think your most recent experience, even what you shared recently on LinkedIn has just highlighted just how much people don’t know, or we can dangerously assume.
So, things like engagement surveys can really shine a light on areas of focus. Things like employee resource groups where you have a true cross section of your staff are so valuable because it’s really important that we get those viewpoints from the bottom up as well as the top down. That for me, is yeah, important.
Ellie:
Completely agree. And there is a balance. I wouldn’t ever say that policies are not important. They really are. Helping shape those policies, as you’ve just described, is also hugely important.
And finally, allowing those policies to mold around the individual experience and as I’ve said, letting them be a stakeholder in that without being too rigid, I think is the third area that we all need to balance on.
To make sure that all the right sort of building blocks are in place for someone to feel completely enabled and empowered in themselves whatever their challenge is or whatever that diversity is in the industry.
Beck, what’s been your experience here?
Rebecca:
Yeah, look, I think in the context of tokenism, and you use the word intention, and I think intention really matters in this conversation.
I think so many things can fall under the bucket of just being really tokenistic, but I think if the intention is for it not to be, so if the intention is clearly that you’re trying to drive some amount of change in a small way, then I think that that has to matter.
And I think my experience really example of this was, and some of you might have had this experience, but back in the day, it would not have been unusual for me to be in a meeting room with all men. It would not have been unusual for me to be the only female in a room full of men.
And I think on the surface, I might’ve looked like the token female, and that might’ve been fairly tokenistic, five guys turning up to a meeting with one female. But for me, it was inclusion. And had that not happened, I probably would’ve missed out on a lot of opportunity.
So, I think there’s a fine balance between being tokenistic and doing things that are really meaningful.
And I would say to organizations, don’t let the fear of being tokenistic paralyze your efforts. Because what might be really tokenistic for someone could mean huge amount of inclusion for someone else. And it’s really hard to get right.
I agree with Renee and Kristy, just ask your teams, ask your agency, speak to your people because you’re not always going to get it right. And I don’t think people are looking at you to always get it right, but they’re looking at you to evolve, and to try, and to be seen as really wanting to try and move the needle.
So, yeah, I think a tokenistic thing is really interesting, but I think sometimes the sum of the paths can help to normalize something. So, you could do one tokenistic thing, and probably not the greatest, but you do five of those things and suddenly it normalizes something.
So, yeah, my view is don’t let the fear of always being tokenistic just hold you back. Like bring the cupcakes, if you need to, if that’s what you want to do, bring the cupcakes because someone will feel included. It’s going to make someone feel good. And don’t get too held back by not doing anything.
Ellie:
It’s fascinating how all these things are just swirling to, they’re all just being threaded together. The individuality, two-way communication. They’re not letting fear hold us back and hold the people responsible. But it’s so important to say it’s true.
I mean, I’ve almost used the term tokenism. I’ve almost used it flippantly in this conversation. And I realize from what you’re saying, you’re absolutely right. I mean, you can’t get it right for everybody all the time, but something is better than nothing.
And I do think I’ve said it in articles, we are hypercritical of ourselves sometimes as an industry. And it is worth recognizing all of the good things that we do.
And Renee, maybe you are finding this, I don’t know, as a relative newbie to this industry. There is a lot of tall poppy syndrome, and there is a lot of people do try and shout each other down. And it is absolutely worth considering what you just said there, Beck, and normalizing it.
Oh God, I’d love for my little corner of the world to be normalized, and it will be one day. But yeah, every journey starts with a single step type of thing is certainly something we should all value. And it’s why you are in your jobs doing all your things. Whether it’s cupcakes or not, it’s fantastic.
I mean, we’re talking about this and we’re talking about the balance of all of these things, all of these themes, and what it all boils down to, a lot of it is the complexity of what we’re trying to do.
We’ve mentioned it in this conversation, the sheer complexity of this space. And the lived experience of all of that complexity.
And I’ve often thought about that, one of the biggest challenges faced by people and culture leads is the sheer complexity of what the DE&I now encompasses. It’s multiple variables around all sorts of issues. I’m not even going to list them out because it would take too long, frankly.
And I know that as a trans woman, since affirming my own gender, I’ve been overwhelmed by the support as I’ve said. But I have been taken aback at some of the questions that have revealed the people’s lack of understanding and these are all from well-meaning and intelligent people.
And I’ve had to put that back on myself. My assumed level of knowledge is way too high, because why should people understand all of this stuff unless they’re confronted with it. But it has made me realize how much subconscious bias still exists just from basic lack of experience.
And we can’t boil the ocean, but do you think that there are opportunities to harness lived experience more, people like myself, but anyone who is in this big sort of area that we’re talking about?
What is the value of lived experience and how do you think we can apply it to policies and approaches just industrywide or within your own organization? It’s a big question, sorry. But, Kristy, I’m going to pick on you.
Kristy:
Thanks. Okay. No, look, the first thing that comes to mind for me is that lived experience, I mean, really is what shapes us to be who we are. So, we’d be crazy to ignore that.
And because really that often can shine a spotlight on where change needs to be, or it’s a testament to the power of like those individual stories that can help reshape workplaces for the better.
I mean, our own experiences include everything. How we’ve encompassed bias, discrimination, privilege, and inclusivity, and highlight the areas that are often just screaming for change or might have ignited our passions to champion diversity.
And maybe, Becky, you talked about and originally shying away from those groups and making a change. I mean, obviously that’s shifted for you now, because you really see how powerful that can be.
So, it’s really, for me, about the collective power of all of these individual stories that can help make our workplaces better. It tells us the people that where we need to focus areas, where people need to feel supported, how we can engage them, how we can unlock their full potential.
So, for me, it’s often where the educational support or policies really might be needed. So, I feel like we’d be crazy to ignore those and not incorporate those into our DEI strategies in workplaces.
Ellie:
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Rebecca:
I agree with Kristy entirely. I think so much of diversity can be celebrated, but I think it’s important for it to be understood. And sometimes it’s hard to understand or to connect with it if you don’t understand the lived experience of someone.
And, Ellie, we had a conversation and just hearing your story for me was a moment where I really understood what that was like for you.
So, even my own experience, I think there’s so many diversity initiatives that have been around celebrating cultural diversity, and I think that was great, but I don’t think anyone really understood my experience of being someone that came from a diverse background in the industry.
And I think that lived experience has to be almost at the center of all of our policies because how do you really understand how to create a better environment, how to have the right initiatives, how to get people to truly feel like they belong if you don’t really understand how the rubber’s hitting the road day to day in their world.
It’s really hard. And then it feels tokenistic and then everyone disconnects from it. And yeah, I think it’s so important to have conversations below the surface, which sometimes we don’t often do.
But I think that’s really, really important to ask people those questions and to get a few layers deep into what’s the actual experience of someone being from a certain background in the industry. Like what are the day-to-day moments that make up that experience? Because that’s where it really matters.
Ellie:
Renee, I can see you nodding. What-
Renee:
Yeah, yeah. Look, let’s go one step further. And I think without being prepared to ask those questions and appreciate those lived experiences, organizations are actually going to fail. We touched on earlier the expectations certainly of our workforce.
But they’ll unintentionally, I think, limit their ability to attract amazing talent. It will probably even flow through to clients as well too. I think everyone can relate to the fact that clients are interested in what agencies are doing in this space.
And so, being really uncomfortable with this stuff is just how it’s going to have to be. And we are going to have to be okay with that.
So, it feels like I’m not telling anybody certainly, in this environment here today, anything we don’t already know, it’s changes are constant. So, understanding those lived experiences.
My children come home and they are exposed and rightfully so, and thank goodness to so much more than we ever were. And this is normal. This is the normal stuff.
So, I think what we’ve got to work really hard at doing, and you said before, executives need to upskill themselves. We run the risk I think if we’re not prepared to continually learn and educate. And if we think something’s tokenistic, I say attach learning to that, attach and education to that.
So, maybe you’re worried about bringing something to the organization, to the agency as an initiative, do it, but attach some education around it and start to embed that, continue to ask those questions of your team.
But it’s really going to be a complex space for quite some time. And we’ve got to be-
Kristy:
Probably always.
Renee:
Probably always. I agree, Kristy. So much so.
Ellie:
Yeah, and this is where we started this part of the conversation. It’s going to be always. And I don’t know a solve for this, but some mechanism in this industry that would allow us to tap into that lived experience more.
I mean, yes, I’ve written a couple of articles but there are so many other lived experience. I mean, I don’t understand, and that would be amazing to tap into. I think that would make everything richer as an industry, but I don’t have a soul for that.
It is easy to say and very hard to do, but I think the more people who do speak out and the more people who are candid about their lived experience, the better it is for everybody in this space.
Ellie:
I think we’re all saying the same thing from different perspectives, and I think the interlocking things, as I’ve said, are really important and really valuable to talk about in this conversation.
I do just want to talk finally about the product of agencies and the product of what we do in marketing more broadly. I did just mention the term, but subconscious bias is definitely a factor in advertising, has been for a long, long time.
The use of in negative gender tropes or gender related language in advertising both male and female are quite well documented. But it can apply to culture bias, it can apply to age bias creeping into language and situation and use of stereotypes or tropes.
And on a personal note, tokenistic use of gender fluidity or non-conformity can be harmful in promoting quite a myopic stereotype of what it is to be gender nonconformance or what it is to be trans.
The only time I ever see trans depicted in advertising is in use of drag queens, which is not remotely the same thing. And they’re in sequence and they’re there for entertainment or at worst, implied ridicule. And that is echoed through entertainment generally in through decades.
And it is not the job of advertising to educate the population, of course. And there’s nothing wrong with drag queens. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all. But at the same time, some rebalancing I personally think would be nice. I’m talking broadly here, not just trans related stuff.
How extensive do you guys think this challenge still is and what do you think agencies and clients can do together to try and improve or remove subconscious bias from the advertising that we produce?
Who wants to take that one first? So, the final question, so it’s open season. Who wants to go first? Kristy, you can go first.
Kristy:
You keep throwing these curve balls to me.
Rebecca:
Three times now.
Kristy:
Yes, I know. Ellie, what have I done to you?
Ellie:
I don’t know, it’s just-
Kristy:
Okay. Escape. Okay, so, I can play this.
There are two streams of thought. To counter that, we were actually having a really interesting discussion The Royals this week about it, debating whether all biases are actually bad.
So, one particular interesting conversational thread was all around biases are actually a big part of what makes us human versus machines. When we look at the rise of AI and we’re all actually predisposed to them.
So, things based on nature and nurture and what our taste in food and aesthetics and travel and all of that are all kinds of preferences and there’re all forms of being biased towards aspects of concepts in the world. There’s certain things that can help us build stronger relationships and networks.
So, there’s optimism bias, which actually helps us look on the brighter side of things. So, it was a really interesting discussion that gave me a lot of food for thought. And I’d love to hear Beck and Renee’s thoughts on this and yours as well, Ellie, of course.
On the flip side of that, to your point, Ellie, and what you’ve just described, I mean, we still see between even the client and agency relationship, so many instances of where sexist, homophobic, racist, discriminatory comments have been really relevant.
It can be things even to talent castings. You prefer the proof of that. You’ve only got to look at AI and some of the images generated when we ask for prompts of things and what we get in return. So, that actually has a real impact on our work and the final product that we see out there in the world.
So, it’s not an easy solve, it is complex. I think at the core of it, we just need to even more education. We need more training on how to best navigate these situations.
And ultimately, it is about collaboration and partnership and how we keep working together for the benefits of creativity, for the benefits of our client’s bottom line, for the benefits of our workplaces. And continue to tackle that together and realize it’s up to all of us to educate and continue to learn.
But yeah, interesting. I’m sure it’s a bit of a different point of view.
Ellie:
Education. I maybe picked on you my own subconscious bias because you’re the creative agency lead here, and that’s probably you’re closest to actually making the ads as these two media experts over here. But I think it’s a great call out that not all bias is bad. And absolutely, optimism bias is-
Kristy:
There was an interesting conversation which was all around. Actually, your bias, that predisposed to safety can help you think to get you out of a tricky situation or to make decisions quickly.
And I can’t claim this as my own, it was actually a really interesting contrast of thought because I mentioned when I was coming on this podcast and opened it up again to asking and listening to people, and I really wanted to hear how everyone felt about it. And it was an interesting point of view that came up from what was discussed.
Ellie:
Well, having said that, I mean, there’s bias and then there’s bias and certainly yeah, I’ve been talking more about the sexual, racial, cultural biases that we still see coming through. And you’re absolutely right, casting and all of this kind of stuff, it just one thing leads to another.
So, I think education is really needed in this space, if I’m honest. And I’m not an expert. That’s just based on what I see in the media. There’s still way too much binary thinking when it comes to how men, women, people of color, trans people, gender diversity is portrayed. And I do think that there’s a lot we-
Kristy:
Yeah, agree.
Rebecca:
The family unit. Middle aged women.
Ellie:
I mean, yes, middled women, younger people, older people. I mean, environmental issues. There are all sorts of things-
Kristy:
Ageism. I mean, we’re still an industry that is addicted to youth. Both within in-house roles, but also, in who we see in our creative output.
Rebecca:
Yeah. And that’s why I completely agree there’s absolutely good bias. I think in the space of diversity and inclusion, there’s never too much good bias. Always feels like it …
It’s probably the one area that there are some things that feel so progressive in the industry, and we talk about policies and initiatives and some of the things that we have is amazing. Couldn’t even dream of some of these policies 10 years ago.
But I think you’re absolutely right, in so many ways, it feels like we haven’t moved even an inch. You can still go walk into boardrooms and it doesn’t feel that diverse, like it’s diverse in terms of gender, but probably not much else.
Kristy:
Not in female creative leadership or in our First Nations, the Create Space Census, I think it was 1.2% of our industry has First Nations representation. Yet they’re so incredibly creative and innovative, and we still haven’t found a way there. The true reconciliation and inclusion.
Rebecca:
Still so much opportunity for us to tap into. It feels like we’ve gone so far, but we’ve also just scratched the surface.
And I think it’s interesting in the survey that came out. Some of the results said that people who are in a leadership role or more senior or sort of 40, 45 plus felt progress was really moved significantly. So many people felt like it hadn’t really moved. And I think-
Kristy:
Actually, think I highlighted that. Just got here, it was the most-
Rebecca:
The bar was so low that it feels like progress has been so big because 10 years ago, the benchmark was just so low. But for the next generation, it’s not that low. It’s pretty high.
So, I think it’s really interesting. It’s just we’re at a really interesting point in time where there’s so much progress, but yet it feels like we’re still scratching the surface.
Ellie:
And you’ve just joined together two big planks of this discussion. So, where this question started was in the end product. It’s bias in the end product. And of course, education is important, but of course, then more diversity in our ranks will lead to the elimination of that subconscious bias.
And I mean, it really fascinating those two insights from the study we were talking about also, just as an extension to that, the MFA, the Media Federation of Australia did a recent census of the diversity in their industry.
And I wrote an article on that saying, it’s all great and lots of good feedback and stuff. First Nations people weren’t mentioned at all. It wasn’t even a classification. There was a headline about the increased cultural diversity in the media industry that did not include First Nations people.
I mean, it’s just like so much work to do there. We’re not even at the beginning of that really. And yeah, sorry, Beck, go on.
Rebecca:
Oh, I was just going to say that that’s so interesting. And I think one thing at like at Hatched, every year we take in an intern, and for that very reason this year we are bringing on an intern that comes from an Aboriginal background because they’re so underrepresented in the industry.
And I think if in a small way, if every other agency did something similar we could really shift the needle. We’re doing it this year, but I think if every agency thought about it and put it on their agenda and thought about bringing in interns in from different backgrounds, it could really drive change-
Kristy:
Equally, I think it’s so right, Beck, I think it’s charging everyone to make a difference. Equally, perhaps thinking outside the box in terms of … there was a study recently that First Nations people, they’ve been sitting in front of a computer for eight hours a day. It’s just not something that is right for them.
So, it’s possibly looking at ways that we can do collaborations with artists and incredible innovators and designers, and how can we actually think more create roles and opportunities to work together.
Ellie:
Is there a space where lived experience is more important to understand than indigenous Australians? I can’t think of a space where we understand less, frankly.
What I’m missing in this conversation though, is the wisdom of Renee. I haven’t heard from you for a while. What’s your take on this?
Renee:
Too many good things floating around.
Look, no, I don’t have an advertising background. I haven’t come from this space, but I’ve certainly been a consumer of it. So, we have to make a deliberate effort to represent minority groups and really provide that allyship.
So, how will this point land? The bias that we’ve been talking about, we have to break it down, we have to challenge it, and we have to find ways to sort of upset it and disrupt it.
So, I think there’s a real balance, and I think this is where tokenism can come in and be seen as it being not necessarily positive and proactively, but we have to represent those minority groups in advertising visually.
We have to shut down those biases. I’m sure we’ve got people in our circle of influence that will say, “Oh, did you see that billboard the other day? Why do they have to represent an indigenous family in that ad? Why do they have to do that? Oh, why do we have to have representation of a family couple in even a commercial that that shows two moms?” Because we have to.
Rebecca:
What’s the saying? You can’t be what you can’t see.
Renee:
Yeah. We have to keep doing these things to get everybody to realize that this is the world that we live in. And if we can’t keep breaking these down by constantly seeing them as normal …
I touched on children, beautiful fresh eyes that just see everything and everyone as equal. How much more is it going to take for us to learn from them?
So, I think that we are probably going to have to be a bit disruptive, Ellie, in this space, and yes, tokenism will rear its head.
But if the intention is to deliberately represent these minority groups and to create that allyship, because that’s what we are doing. We’re building the gaps, or we’re closing the gaps that are there to make sure that we are striving for equality. Yeah.
Ellie:
Absolutely. And look, and part of what you said resonates with me deeply, personally. I mean, a lot of people on this planet do not think that I am real. There are people on this planet who want me to be eradicated. And I’m quoting from an influential American Christian political group.
Without normalization and without people who are reasonable by nature seeing representation, the only sources of information they have becomes the rhetoric or the silence, both of which are equally challenging.
So, look, I think, I mean, this stuff that we’re talking about does have the power to change people’s lives over the longer term. I certainly feel that from my own perspective, and no doubt a lot of other people would too.
I think we’re going to leave it at that. This has been so … I mean, I’m just sort of processing everything we’ve just talked about. It’s been so fascinating.
And I sincerely thank you so much. It’s been a really great discussion. I think your insights and your experiences are so valuable.
And I do want to personally thank you for the work that you do, because it does have such a positive impact on people like myself and people across all areas of the diversity spectrum for want of a better term. And I think the more of these roles that we have in our amnesty, the better.
So, thank you again. And-
Kristy:
Thank you.
Rebecca:
Thank you.
Ellie:
Have a great, happy weekends.
Renee:
Yeah. Wonderful way to finish a Friday. Thank you.