Bonnie MacTavish and Ahmed Meer, along with Christine Sultana, founded a Digital Product Studio called Nightjar. Bonnie and Ahmed talk to TrinityP3’s Anton Buchner about what guides their decision-making in creating a successful human connection with clients and their customers when changing technology: the values, the clarity, the understanding of what to sacrifice, and how to achieve momentum.
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You need those champions as well. You need champions internally who are going to fly the flag and are going to take on that change and lead it from the organization within.
Transcription:
Anton:
Hi, I’m Anton Buchner, Business Director at TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy. Welcome again to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Now, today we’re talking to the founders of a really interesting design and technology studio that I came across a couple years ago called Nightjar. And I’d love to explore with them the topic of staying true to vision and values when making a technology decision within your business.
It’s something really close to my heart as the tech industry continues to explode, we’ve seen the explosion of AI again, and they keep promising this human touch and human connection with technology.
So, I’d love to delve in a little bit deeper with the two founders of Nightjar, two of the three founders. Firstly, here we have Bonnie MacTavish. Welcome, Bonnie.
Bonnie:
Hi Anton.
Anton:
And the second founder, Ahmed Meer. Welcome Ahmed.
Ahmed:
Thank you, Anton. Love to have us here.
Anton:
Just say that again.
Ahmed:
Oh, sorry. Yes, thank you Anton. Lovely to be here.
Anton:
Great to see you guys. I was really interested when I first met you and we had a good chat, but I think for anybody listening around this topic, before we delve in, can you just share who is Nightjar? What sort of work do you do? And then we’ll go from there.
Ahmed:
Great. So, Nightjar is a digital product studio. We’re based in Surry Hills in Sydney. Our core focus is around unifying brand, experience, design and technology and really to drive that into a product that brings real change for an organization. So, that’s a kind of our key point of difference.
A lot of agencies can do one or the other quite well, but it’s the combination of trying to bring those disciplines together that Bonnie, myself and Christine have been really trying really hard for the last eight years. We’ve been technology first from the start, and it’s really about blending that user experience coupled with those design principles that is our core strength.
Bonnie:
We founded Nightjar in 2017, so yes, Ahmed’s little reminder there that it’s going to be eight years this year, which is crazy. But we really wanted to focus on doing digital well. So, Ahmed, in case you haven’t noticed by the accent, hails from the sunny UK and he did see the opportunity here in Australia because he thought we were a bit behind the eight ball in Australia.
So, we work across lots of different industries, but the common thread is really, and I guess as we’ll talk to today, more around vision and values, but partnering with people who are very firm in their vision and their values, and they’re looking to challenge a status quo and make a change.
And I guess part of our own process is that we are very bespoke. We don’t do templates or cookie cutter. We take every project on its own merits, and we look at the problems that we need to solve to create solutions for those needs.
Anton:
Fantastic. I might pick you up because there are the words straight away, vision and values, I think anybody listening will have a view on what a vision is and we see that across businesses. Some have missions, some have visions, and as you said, values.
Some have values, they’re either long-winded and stuck in a document and stuck in the bottom drawer, or they’re drawn up and put on the wall. And some lived and breathed, but what do you mean by vision and values when you’re talking about that?
Bonnie:
Yeah, interesting. I guess starting with our own values. So, when we did set up Nightjar, we were very firm on our values and we wanted to solve problems that were going to make the world, without being too lofty a slightly better place, how could we leave the world in a slightly better place? And that meant choosing clients and being very selective with the clients who were doing good by the world.
So, when we first set up back in 2017, in Ahmed’s kitchen in Bondi, actually we actually said no a lot more than we said, yes. So, we were quite selective and that’s pretty hard to do at the very beginning when you are trying to make a name for yourself.
Ahmed:
Even today.
Bonnie:
I mean, yes, even today, it’s still hard and it’s a decision that we consciously make every day. And someone once said, “Values can be expensive,” which is true, they can cost you. But I guess that’s always been our vision in terms of our North star, was to really be aligned on that with the three of us always making sure that we felt good about the choices we were making in terms of the clients we were working with and the solutions that we were proposing for them as well.
It was always clear from the beginning that tech was going to be our underpinning, and so we were only committed to working with modern systems, no outdated platforms and looking at methodologies that really help us to yeah ship, pivot, progress as quickly as possible and doing the right thing for the client not just selling on a solution but actually understanding the problems.
Anton:
That’s a refreshing thing to hear, and I think that’s again, an angle on people can get caught up in the technology so I’m interested to delve into that a bit deeper. Where did that come from, either Ahmed or Bonnie?
Was it within you guys and you’ve just come together and the stars have aligned but hearing that you’ve got values of the North star that’s guiding the use of technology is interesting. Where’s that come from?
Ahmed:
I mean, that’s always been underpinning as Bon mentioned. And I’ve had a big kind of technology background and I just felt like when we were in Australia, when we were doing the work that we’re doing, a lot of the platforms and systems that we were working to just didn’t allow us to kind of meet the aspirations of the business and so we always held back by that.
The creativity couldn’t be unleashed, the business value couldn’t be kind of brought to the table, the opportunities weren’t there. So, the briefs were just always trying to hit on a mark that just couldn’t be met because the pace was too slow.
And so, to iterate at a pace that we need to, we have to kind of look at that as almost a value, a vision of Nightjar that we have to uplift the ways of working so that we can meet brief demands. And so, Juan and I have come from a more traditional agency world as well, so we know a lot of the pitfalls that’re involved.
And so, yeah, that was kind of a very clear decision upfront that in order to change the game, in order to innovate, in order us to also to meet some of the expectations of ourselves, of what we want to achieve in our own careers we have to put this value at the highest order.
Anton:
So, I read between the lines, you’re a bit constrained when your agency’s side, is that correct? Well, that’s the beauty of being independent. So, it’s interesting, we’ve heard other agencies say similar things as well. But how do you start to then unearth clients’ values either in a pitch situation or talking about projects or just talking with a client? What’s your process of uncovering their values?
Bonnie:
That’s really interesting because you mentioned the other pitch word in there which I think we can get to. But I think it’s very much, we talk a lot about chemistry, and I know that’s very overused as a word and a phrase around chemistry sessions, but we have found that over the past eight years we’ve gotten a pretty good sense, a pretty good gut feeling really around from those very first conversations you can kind of draw out in those first conversations.
But even before that, just looking at how the briefs structured, is it a good brief? Is there an ambition for the tech to move them forward? Are they open to new solutions? What’s their appetite for change, I guess?
Ahmed:
Organizational change as well.
Bonnie:
Yeah, organizational change, exactly. Because we do always want to make sure we’re pushing people outside of their comfort zone. That’s one of the sort of promises that we make up front when we partner with clients.
I guess as well, in terms of chemistry and are they good people, other people we want to be working with in the trenches when the going gets tough, I guess there’s always the initial discovery workshops, which are great.
And then as you get into the nitty gritty and rolling up the sleeves and you’re working through the UX and you’re going back and forth on changes and updates and findings and wanting to push for the best work, you want to make sure you are alongside people who you’re going to enjoy the process with as well.
And I guess in terms of the pitch thing, we try really hard to not pitch because we think it devalues the work, it’s really impossible to, without even having a proper understanding of all of the stakeholders, their needs, their desires, the undercurrents of the business, not really understanding the target audience necessarily beyond what’s in the brief.
And so, it’s really hard to then be expected to come back with creative work or creative ideas and it also just kind of shows that potentially that client doesn’t necessarily value the work that you do and the process to get to that work, so we think long and hard about that too.
Anton:
Yeah, I think that’s a good angle. I better preface a little bit. We do conduct pitches. Interestingly, the chemistry side of it is the front end of every pitch. And virtually every pitch is one from that chemistry session and we push clients hard.
Bonnie:
Really what you can achieve together, it shows you might potentially work as a team. So, beyond just the creative work, it’s what’s the process that’s sometimes the most important thing.
Anton:
Well, I think people and process, I think has, you touched on Bonnie, that it’s the people that you’re going to work with in the trenches or when things get tough or if they’re going to be progressive, you’ve got to make some tough decisions.
So, you want people by your side, you don’t want ahead or behind, so you want them with you, you want to be with them. But yeah, we push the clients, the marketers or procurement or IT, whoever it is to really think long and hard about values and chemistry and are these the type of people?
I remember a pitch from last year down to two agencies and one was just not quite the right fit with their CEO, and the client made the decision and said, “Look, I just don’t think our CEO is going to gel with that person day-to-day, rest of the team fantastic.” But it was important for their culture.
So, am I taking from your stand here that it’s more of a gut feel, the type of people you work with?
Ahmed:
I would say so. I think over many years now; gut is an instinct that is so important and we value it quite high at Nightjar. We’ve made some mistakes in the past, of course, as many agencies have but now, we really try and hone in on those red flags that kind of we pick up on.
And there’s a lot of … when you’re in the trenches with a client for over a 12-month project beyond that is a big mental toll on your health if the energy is wrong and if the desire for change is not there, or momentum can get stalled and timelines can get strained and budget can get strained. And so, there are always going to be points and factors that happen through that course of time that you need to consider.
Are you with the right group of people that you can take this project on for that long duration, for that long period? Can you have a laugh with them? Can you pick up the phone to them very easily when a problem has arisen and find a solution forward without you being almost internally gut wrenched. Like, “How do we solve this internally?” That’s not collaborative in any kind of form or way.
So, we’re looking for the people who love to jump on the phone, love to have a conversation, love to kind of work through the problem and issues. And that’s something you can quickly align on at the beginning, that those conversations can really come clear early days.
Bonnie:
That also comes from trust too. I think that when Ahmed’s talking about, yeah, can you just pick up the phone and not be scared of the news you’re about to deliver is going to land not particularly well.
I think that when you’re working through the project together and you have that close collaborative relationship, and you can be really honest and you can be really transparent and you can say, “Hand on heart, no, we don’t actually think this is the right decision for you, or no, we don’t believe that that solution, we know you want to go down that path, but hand on heart looking at your business, looking at your users, this is not the right thing for you.”
You want to be able to have that open dialogue and it’s not really an us and them, you kind of want to, and again, I know this is overused, but you do almost want to be one team, really.
Anton:
So, I can hear the green flags, I’ll call them green flags because I can hear that the positives and the connection points, are they formalized in any way at the start of relationships? Do you talk about let’s be collaborative or let’s be able to open and pick up the phone or does it just again?
Ahmed:
We do. And so, that’s actually part of our almost early conversations. We have a little slide in the tech where we make a promise to the client, and we ask the same in return of the respect and level of communication collaboration. And so, it’s something that we have a conversation about. Are these principles something that you align on too.
Because before we jump into this, it’s something that we’d love to kind of unpack a little bit and have an honest conversation about. Because when you’re doing work, when you’re bringing change to an organization, there’s always going to be egos involved perhaps on certain levels. Change is scary and fear-
Anton:
Natural fear in overhauling systems or tech or whatever.
Ahmed:
That’s right, technology can be scary to some and-
Bonnie:
It’s a big responsibility within an organization to undertake that digital transformation is a big, big responsibility.
Anton:
There’s a golden takeaway for listeners because I think there’s been too many situations where we’ve heard and seen and spoken to peers about technology transformation or tech change. And it has been big, it has been scary, it has been either enterprise wide but the divisions and the ego, or the different types of decision makers are all pulling in slightly different directions.
So, you end up with this transformation that just is still transforming three years down the track, five years down the track and doesn’t actually get anywhere. So, hearing that you’re laying a foundation first in terms of cultural alignment or value alignment is a great takeaway.
Bonnie:
And you need those champions as well. You need champions internally who are going to fly the flag and are going to take on that change and lead it from the organization within. Because we really try very hard to empower the teams, the tech that we build, the platforms that we build for our clients.
They can harness, they can take over the reins, they’re not reliant on us. We often joke that we make ourselves redundant because we hand over the Ferrari, and they’re able to speed off in it without ongoing support from us. So, you need those people who are going to take that and lead that within the business.
Anton:
Yeah, and harness it. You talked about red flags Ahmed earlier and I thought just before we jump on to maybe some examples, what are the red flags then for you guys? Are they clear as well?
Ahmed:
Yeah, I think there’s the trust of, I guess everyone’s got their own opinions about direction and for us, it’s always, if we put an idea out there, what are we going to get back? Are we going to be shut down immediately?
Sometimes we can find a middle ground with clients around their ambitions, our ambitions for the project but there’s always that sense where if we take the path of mediocre, we’re going to end up with the mediocre product. So, we’ve got to be again, very clear about where we’re heading and that North star alignment, again-
Bonnie:
What their ambitions are.
Ahmed:
And I think it can never be piecemeal. And so, when we’re talking to a client and they’ve got these big aspirations and these big goals, and they’ve also got a brief that has results attached to it, we must hit these targets.
The red flags for us are if you can’t make a departure on something over here on our chart, then we cannot achieve those results and those are the conversations we have to have. And when we find that we can’t find a progress forward where it has to be this way. If the client says, “It has to be this way for us to achieve these results,” then it’s kind of like, “Well, we can’t do that for you-
Bonnie:
Because what value are we adding then?
Ahmed:
And it’s your way or the highway. And so, it isn’t collaborative in that manner and yeah it’s-
Bonnie:
So, I guess overly prescriptive is something tricky.
Anton:
And there are plenty of those in the market and of course there’s a spectrum. Anyone listening will be going, “Well, some clients just have to go, some direction is dictated.” But yeah, often could be a train wreck because just putting in a X, Y, Z system is not going to solve the ills of what’s the challenge for them.
Bonnie:
And we’re not adding real value there. We are not coming to the party with what the solution could be. Look, we’re here to open up everybody’s minds to what could be not the whole reason why the process is going on and why they’re looking for a new platform or looking for a new brand is because they want change so to deliver more of the same just makes no sense.
Anton:
Being a strategist, I love sacrifice. So, you’ve got to sacrifice something to go in a direction … I love.
Ahmed:
Exactly that. I think you just hit the nail on the head there, because sacrifice is the most important measure to hit those results. We can’t have everything for the budget and all the timeframe. And so, you’ve got to be very, very particular about what we are heading forward with, and we do that road mapping up front with their client.
And in that workshopping session that those early days, we are a bit ruthless that you can’t have everything on day one, and that’s not the most highest important value to you or to your user either. So, those particular decisions about what’s in scope and what’s out of scope is where we kind of see those green flags and red flags kind of occur as well, because it is that collaborative nature then.
You can have everything over time and achieve it as more budgets and ROI is released, we’re here to work with you on that to hit those measures.
Anton:
Fantastic. How about some examples? Can you bring this to life talking generically, but can you share a couple of examples of clients where you’ve, you’ve matched values or vision upfront, and then helped them on a strategy journey?
Ahmed:
Definitely.
Bonnie:
Yeah, for sure.
Ahmed:
Do you want to start with the United States Study Center, I think is one of our recent client that we’ve kind of worked with that values and vision aligned so well, and I think-
Bonnie:
So, just a bit of background. So, they’re a think tank based at the University of Sydney. So, they work to provide insight and analysis on the relationship between Australia and America, the dynamics that are shaping America and how this influences us in Australia.
Ahmed:
And the client was very clear and upfront on their brief and the values of the organization to the public. They are researchers, policymakers and they work in media and they also have the educational arm where they have students. And so, we always kind of work upfront with them workshop setting the vision for the platform and then helps-
Bonnie:
The North star, as we were saying.
Ahmed:
Helps to guide all the decisions through UX design technology solutions, and how we delivered throughout the project. So, again, a very collaborative process. We were very humbled by how intelligent the people were in the room.
Of course, they are experts in their field and what we found so intriguing about this is that they treated us as experts in our field. And again, the same respect and mutual kind of trust was there on their side.
They know their organization, their business so well, we know our principles and UX design technology to a very good degree as well. And so, that bridge was just perfect. They trusted us, feedback was just so collaborative it was never a directive, “We cannot have this in any shape or form,” it was very much ideas led.
Anton:
I think that’s an interesting Ahmed because we always see this in the service industry, if you’re outsourcing to an expert, then let the expert be the expert.
Where we see it fall over is where clients are either trying to control the process or try to influence the outcome of a process versus what you just described, which is, we’re very clearly experts in data or knowledge or information about the relationship between America and Australia, but we need experts around us and obviously you’ve filled that puzzle piece into their complete picture, but aligned beautifully.
Bonnie:
And that’s what gives you the best results. I mean, we’ve all seen the opposite as you’ve just alluded to Anton, where the client wants to control every single decision, and it doesn’t allow us to add the value as the experts.
So, yeah, I think that the USSC was a really clear example and yielded the best results for them, but having a very clear brief upfront working together on what the vision was and the value we were going to bring to the equation and then both sides respected as the experts in their respective fields.
So, we referred to them because they understand their organization. And so, we looked to them for insight on what we needed to accomplish with the platform. And then they allowed us to run with it and go and do that and it yielded a really fantastic result for everybody, and it was a great process.
Ahmed:
That’s right. And we have those difficult conversations up front where we need to evolve their brand as well. And that can be a particular point where clients just will say, “Absolutely no,” but again, they knew the ambition they were trying to create, they knew they had the trust, and it was a point where we were able to prove that it was necessary.
Anton:
Do you have clients where the ambition has not been as crystallized, and you’ve had to help them or?
Ahmed:
Yes. I think many turn. I think with that is it’s that we definitely do a very big educational piece around that as well. And so, we do give a lot more time to those clients than the necessary we’re paying for, which is fine. We know we like to help them on the journey as well.
Bonnie:
But that’s what saves all the time at the end as well. You need to make sure that you’re really crystallized on the vision, on the ambition. We spend a lot of time writing reverse briefs really as well, just, alright, this is what we heard and a phrase you used before reading between the lines, is this what we’re trying to achieve? And we spend a lot of time making sure that’s really solid before we proceed into the next stages of the process.
Anton:
Getting clarity. And you work with the Guide Dogs as well?
Bonnie:
We do.
Anton:
Can you share a bit more of that, how you matched with them or how you got the values of … because they’re obviously a very magnificent association.
Bonnie:
And that again, is we spoke to before about chemistry and gut. But the very first conversations, these are conversations that have been going for a long time before the project even kicked off. Because also for them, it’s important to find the right match.
And yeah, even from the very first conversations, we just knew that not only are they a lovely team of very smart people. But they all had a big ambition and everybody sitting around that table in those first meetings was very aligned on what that vision for the platform was.
And so, yeah, we’re working with them on looking how technology can play a role in giving people with low vision the confidence for them to be able to live independently for longer. And I guess being part of the — I’ve just recently done a lot of research and user testing which has been really eye-opening.
Like elucidating the understanding, I guess firsthand going on the journey and understanding some of these principles that Guide Dogs live by and understanding how people can be discriminated against by technology, listening to how people can’t even use apps. People with low vision can’t even use apps and they have to take screenshots and zoom in.
So, really us getting under the skin of the issues has really helped us align with the Guide Dogs team as well because we’re all totally understanding of what this platform needs to achieve and the goals that we need to hit.
Anton:
That’s interesting. I mean, that’s the huge human angle of technology, isn’t it?
Bonnie:
Yes, exactly. And this is a really great project around how do we use technology to enable people, but also how do we humanize it? That’s essentially the challenge.
Ahmed:
How do we humanize it with our user? And again, going with that instinct client, when we initially started having a first initial chat with Guide Dogs, we spent the first hour not talking about work, it was just really great conversation. And I mean, I think that’s really solidifies the relationship there, we’re just able to have a conversation between us and then talk about-
Anton:
And then we better get into it.
Ahmed:
But I think that really — yeah, I think there’s the chemistry is undeniable sometimes.
Anton:
Ahmed, I think it sort of sounds obvious that you should build a connection, but maybe it’s just too often overlooked. And in the AI world now that’s fueling speed and marketing departments, any marketer listening to this will have so much on their plate and faster, faster, faster, more, more, more. But I’ve also seen there’s a lot of science behind measuring culture and measuring relationships et cetera.
I wonder whether the world’s got too caught up in that measurement of the science of it versus just sitting down and having those conversations. Well, I love what you just said is getting, I think Bonnie, you said is get the clarity. I think you mean this, did you really mean that?
Bonnie:
Yes.
Anton:
Too often people don’t understand what each other has said, or my version of what I heard was this, and your version was that. So, let’s make sure we’re a hundred percent clear in how we want to operate, how we want to work, how we like doing things and Ahmed, you said it-
Bonnie:
And a lot of that only happens yeah, exactly in these-
Anton:
By talking.
Bonnie:
Face-to-face conversations by talking. And I actually read, speaking of like it’s not science, but there’s some numbers behind it was I read an article that mentioned around it was something like four hours of face-to-face time in five different locations or something like that.
And it basically said that’s how you build a rapport with people is that you have to spend the time, you have to meet with them face to face. You have to build that relationship across multiple different places and that’s how you really solidify this bond, I guess.
Ahmed:
And I think early days, I’m very process driven, framework driven, I would like to put a process and at any point but then-
And then over time, I guess sometimes they kind of get in the way and they hamper progress, in fact, and they hamper real conversation. And so, I think, even internally, creating these frameworks of one-to-ones and we must meet every week and do this and X and Y and Z instead of it being a natural organic, let’s have a conversation.
Let’s go grab a coffee or let’s chat, it doesn’t have to become more process oriented. Because the human element’s almost lost in a way sometimes in that kind of factor where you’re doing a whip and it’s a spreadsheet and a table of and again, we still have measures in place.
Bonnie:
We still have spreadsheets, don’t worry.
Ahmed:
But yeah, I think we’re losing sight of the fact that there should always be this kind of human element brought back.
Anton:
Yeah, it’s wonderful.
Bonnie:
We spend so much time working, you want to enjoy it.
Anton:
And I think if you go to any of the tech conferences, I won’t mention one that was up last week, but the presentations are about the features. Here’s a feature A, feature B, feature C, and you do all this amazing stuff, and now it’s AI, so you don’t have to do anything and you can sit back and watch it all get done.
It’s like, well, we’re becoming very robotic now. There’s huge power. I don’t need to tell you guys that, the power to scale mind data and deploy amazing experiences is fantastic. But never losing sight of that human element, which you’ve just touched on is a fantastic grounding value or a grounding star, I’m going to call it as you go towards your North star, so yeah, that’s great to hear.
What would be the opposite? So, I think you touched on this, but if you’re not hammering out this front end understanding and getting alignment, what have you seen? Where’s it gone wrong?
Ahmed:
So, do you mean as in the alignment with the clients?
Anton:
Yeah. I’m just saying if you don’t go through that process, have you had clients that said, “Well, no, we want to jump straight into the brief. We want to see a solution straight away.” Have you had to compromise?
Bonnie:
I guess it can lead to a lot of rework and a lot of doubling back, a lot of definition at the wrong end, down at the pointy end where you should be pretty well defined, I guess. Being clear is being kind and how do we … I can thank Brene Brown for that one, I think.
Anton:
I thought I heard that before.
Bonnie:
I just think without that really clear foundation in place, you’re going to save yourself a world of pain for everybody as well, even internally, on the client side, those points of communication, otherwise you just-
Ahmed:
And we’ve had that.
Bonnie:
Wasting a lot of time.
Ahmed:
Sometimes we do make a mistake where we think at early days, we’re aligned that the client’s like, “Oh, we’ve seen your work, we want that. Let’s jump in.”
Bonnie:
Or you make an assumption on that.
Ahmed:
And I think sometimes we’re drawn into that too. Like, “Oh, it seems like they like what we do. Alright, let’s jump in.”
Bonnie:
Let’s just do what we do.
Ahmed:
Let’s do it. But then you start to get into the weeds of the work. And again, it’s kind of the alignment is completely out of sorts and you’re like, “Oh, this whole direction is wrong. We’d like to go somewhere completely different.” Like, “Oh, well that’s strange because I thought you-
Bonnie:
Thought you loved what we do.
Ahmed:
Yeah. I thought you love what we do.
Anton:
So, there’s a huge inefficiency, there’s a huge cost, not just in terms of rework, but cost of man, woman hours in terms of people allocated to the project.
Bonnie:
And I guess a level of frustration in the team because you want to be doing work that you love, that you’re proud of and when you’re not able to do that yeah, project fatigue can set in as well.
Anton:
Is there one project you’ve worked on in the eight years that you absolutely have loved and gone, “This is the pinnacle,” or is that yet to come?
Bonnie:
We’re always looking to the future, Anton.
Ahmed:
I mean, I’m really excited for Guide Dogs at the moment because such a fantastic crew there. Again, the alignments there we’re just yeah, I think all guns blazing on that and it’s just been a very collaborative process so far. And then I guess we haven’t, I think with all the work that we’ve done, we’ve just had such great clients who’ve trusted us.
So, everything from destination Wales, from government level and we’ve found that that work to be really rewarding too, they really trusted us to move their platform along, to set a new vision for them to also work in restraints of government and their principles. So, the trust again was there, and we were able to deliver a platform that we’re really proud of and that can grow.
Anton:
You’ve cracked the trust in government, this is fantastic.
Ahmed:
Exactly.
Anton:
Ahmed, what’d you do? What’s the golden nugget there?
Ahmed:
What’s the nugget there? Again, I think it’s government themselves are tired of antiquated systems, and I think they hate inefficiency as much as we hate inefficiency.
Anton:
Yeah, there’s an alignment.
Ahmed:
Yeah, alignment, happened again. And we do have a lot of chats with a lot of government agencies and it’s always the same problem. Restrictive platforms, they can’t do what they’re trying to accomplish in what they’ve got. And they’re mandated sometimes to abide by certain rules, which again, we love to break the rules but how do we work within those restraints and still move forward?
Bonnie:
And it’s not just breaking the rules for the rule’s sake, it’s actually doing that education job by saying and going back to what Ahmed was saying earlier, “If these are your objectives, we cannot achieve those objectives with this technology stack or with these restraints in place.”
So, if you want to achieve this, we can do that, but this is how we’re going to do it, and we’re going to show you exactly how, and we’re going to show you past results of what we’ve done for other clients, we’re going to explain all the reasons why we believe this to be the best solution for you and take them on that journey.
And that was destination New South Wales as well was it was a journey that we went on with their team, with their IT teams. And yeah, just really, and as Ahmed said, we’ve created something that is exactly what the brief had asked for in terms of delivering that future scalability and flexibility.
Anton:
So, I love that. So, not just clarity in your relationship, but clarity in the A to B, where are you trying to go to. Ahmed, I think you opened up with this, you can’t go to B straight away, so how do you go to A to B via a few phases or a few horizons?
I think too often we see that too in technology transformations, clients want to very quickly or within a time horizon, get to an end result that involves people, involves their capability, involves their maturity, involves the supplier or vendor like you guys, and how do you all come together to get realistic?
So, I like to hear that, set yourselves realistic horizons and how do you achieve that? We’ve got to be, is that what you’re saying? We’ve got to this certain hurdle or we’ve got to this certain stage gauge, is that how you’re measuring each stage of success?
Ahmed:
Yes. I mean, because we roadmap out what we’re trying to achieve and what we’re trying to achieve in that timeframe. We’re very results driven. We put together KPIs around that measurement too, and then what our goals that we’re hitting here. So, then, release cycle two, what our goals are hitting over here.
So, that methodology helps us to kind of move forward at a pace that we need to that also allows, again, budgets to open up. And then reprioritization. If you’re trying to build everything at once, you’re going to miss the mark. Users don’t want everything at once either, and then there’s too many features to have at once either as well.
Anton:
Sacrifice, back to sacrifice again, what can you have.
Bonnie:
And then you can’t maintain it. Then you’ve got a client who’s got this huge, unwieldy product that is not necessarily right for the user either. So, yeah, you want to be, as we said before, around having that internal champion, moving things along, being comfortable with the product that they’re taking to market, and then iterating on that based on data, based on user feedback, based on business goals, and as they may shift and change as Ahmed said, and reprioritizing what that roadmap for the future looks like.
Ahmed:
I mean, transformation could be a loaded word. I mean, I think with technology at the moment, it allows us to move at such a pace. But I think momentum is what I always have as a kind of gliding vision is that you can move fast, but it’s about keeping momentum going and keeping that energy going.
And I feel like transformation doesn’t have to be a long-winded process these days because technology does allow us to move at a pace, but it’s about how we create momentum in the organization to move forward and unless you do that, there is no way forward. You will do a five-year transformation instead of a two-year transformation or a one year.
Anton:
And nobody wants that.
Ahmed:
That’s it.
Anton:
That might be a good place to end off. But I think the takeaways for me with Nightjar, you’re hearing the gut feel and getting the clarity of that relationship upfront. But there are spreadsheets and processes behind the management.
Ahmed:
We’ve done a lot-
Bonnie:
Don’t worry.
Ahmed:
Process two ends on earth, we love it. That’s my favorite thing to do. I would say get your foundation right, always from the beginning and then the world is your oyster.
Anton:
Great. Look, I’ve really enjoyed having a chat with you guys. Thanks Bonnie, and thanks Ahmed for joining us today at Managing Marketing.
Bonnie:
Us too. Thanks, Anton. Thanks so much.
Ahmed:
Have a good day.
Anton:
If you’ve enjoyed this episode of the Managing Marketing Podcast, then please either like review or share it, help spread the words of wisdom. Many thanks again, Bonnie and Ahmed for joining me today. Actually I’ve got one last question before we leave. How would you describe the Nightjar vibe in one word? And that’s it. You don’t need to answer.