Jessica Bray is Head of Media at Audience Precision. She is also the daughter of industry veterans Haydon and Kerry Bray. Having grown up in a household of media and advertising, it is perhaps not surprising Jessica is working in that same industry.
Jessica speaks openly and honestly about her career path and the challenges and opportunities it has presented her to date and the future challenges for the industry from the perspective of someone who has almost spent their entire life in the media industry.
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The advertising space was really — it just always interested me. I saw and heard of all the great stories
of the good old days and all these things from my parents all the time, and just really thought
that that kind of industry had appealed to and thought I could contribute in.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you’re enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the word and wisdom from our guests each week.
Working in media and advertising is an interesting career choice. In my own case, it was something I wandered into after starting my working life in medical research. For others, it’s a lifelong dream or ambition.
But my guest today is someone who literally grew up in the media and advertising industry. Now having grown up in a household of media and advertising, it’s perhaps not surprising she’s now working in that same industry.
Please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, the Head of Media at Audience Precision, Jessica Bray. Welcome, Jess.
Jessica:
Thank you for having me. It’s good to be here.
Darren:
Now, head of media, first of all, what does that actually mean? What is your role here at Audience Precision?
Jessica:
Yeah, so I have been head of media for just over a year and that covers off local and international media strategy, planning and buying. It’s all on the same team. Technology development and product management for the team, and also senior leadership and management of both team and clients. So, it’s a big role definitely.
Darren:
Because Audience Precision, while most people would perhaps think of as media only, it is actually more like a full-service agency because you do have services outside of media, don’t you?
Jessica:
Yes, yes. And we have toyed with the name strategy consultancy before because we do offer quite a robust insights offering and data offering, and we have proprietary technology that’s a really key part of our business as well. And so, we’re able to offer this range of services to clients which is, yeah, really exciting and fun.
Darren:
Including content and creative, I believe.
Jessica:
We do offer creative and content. We have partners that we work with to deliver that full service for clients.
Darren:
Because that’s becoming more and more interesting from my perspective in that so many media channels need a close relationship between the media strategy, planning and buying. And the content that’s actually flowing into that, the days of sort of being arms distance from each other has become more and more problematic, hasn’t it?
Jessica:
Yeah. And we find that it doesn’t matter if you’re putting the advertising in the right space and you get the right audience. That’s a really key part. But if you’re not serving the right content that’s actually going to deliver and engage them, then you’re not going to get that attention.
So that’s why the insights that we craft are around making sure we’re creative, is engaging and speaking to that audience. So, when we find the right place and we’re buying that right environment, it’s also actually going to engage and connect with that audience.
Darren:
There would also be an opportunity, I imagine, getting insights coming back from the content that you’re running in the channels that you’ve selected, isn’t it?
Jessica:
Absolutely. And you can toy with things and A/B test with copy and slight changes and just kind of mood of things that really, really inform decisions. So, yeah, it’s really exciting.
Darren:
Right. And the other exciting thing is a lot of those insights and perhaps not coming in real time, but very close to it, you can on a daily basis, see how things are performing, can’t you?
Jessica:
Absolutely. And I’m sure that will progress with AI and all of the ChatGPT and all those things coming along where everything will be able to change much, much quicker in the future as well.
Darren:
Now you’ve used the term insights.
Jessica:
Yes.
Darren:
I lost count at about three or four times. Because it’s interesting, there’s lots of conversations around data, data analytics, data science, and people talk about insights. But do you have a sort of working definition that you use for insight?
Jessica:
That’s a good question. An insight I would consider, and we would consider here is something that’s actionable. So, there’s a lot of interesting things you can know about people these days. There’s data on everything, but what is actually useful? What is an actionable insight?
So, an insight that we would consider valuable to use is what someone’s actually doing on a social media platform. Because a lot of people are just on social media, or we don’t really care that they have Vegemite for breakfast.
It’s what are they doing about their day, and how can we connect with that? So yeah, I think the actionable element and that word before the word insight is the key.
Darren:
So, it’s a piece of knowledge about the audience that you could then action to get some sort of response?
Jessica:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Darren:
Okay. Because I’m always fascinated by the fact that so much of the data, particularly that we get from media is about behavior. We know what people are doing, but the part that seems to be missing often is why they’re doing it.
Jessica:
Absolutely. The motivations, their values, their belief systems, what makes them tick. So, one of the things that is the foundation of our segmentation model and the way that we approach our insights is that the demographics are not the important piece.
It’s the psychographics and what informs who they actually are, and then why they’ll be making decisions and why they will then purchase from your brand or engage with your service.
Darren:
Yeah. Because I was always fascinated when — and actually, your dad Haydon-
Jessica:
Yeah.
Darren:
When he started talking to me about Audience Precision, and it’s probably three, four years ago. How it was so focused on how do you use data to actually get into the audience’s mindset to help impact the media selection or the channel selection.
Jessica:
Yeah. And so, we have built a lot of technology around that to make it faster, because a lot of people struggle with the dense amount of data that we have in this industry. And there’s only more and more as you start making every media platform digital and you can buy out of home digitally now, and things are progressing. So, you get so much more real time data.
And so, that’s where we’ve built a lot of technology around that. So, different technology tools that can decipher all of the actionable insights. One of our first tools was the media planning tool, and it’s called Laser. And it was the start of our tech Precise360.
And it’s my little baby. It’s the original tool that we worked on. And essentially, it’s capturing all of that information going, where are they actually engaging? Where are they engaging? Is it social media, is it TV, is it radio?
Darren:
Sorry.
Jessica:
And then it’s over labeled all the industry data and everything that we need from surveys and all that good stuff so that we can be making decisions quicker. So, we’re not bound by, okay, we need to make this media campaign plan, for example.
But we’re also digging in Excel sheets of data. We’ve built tech that’s quite gamified. Highlight pops up red. Yeah. It’s quite user friendly and allows you to find the insight really quick. The actionable insight really quick, I should say.
Darren:
Yeah. Sorry, water went down the wrong way. It’s interesting because people talk about big data. And the thing that amazes me is it’s not the huge amount of data, it’s the volume that’s coming all the time.
And so, it’s interesting the way you’ve specifically addressed that by trying to make it as accessible as possible. Because that’s one of the issues, you can have terabytes of data coming at you every day. But how do you get to the point of being able to pick out the cherries? Someone said to me, it’s like being thirsty and trying to get a drink from a fire hydrant.
Jessica:
Yes. That’s great. I love that. Yeah. I think there’s also so much data that the clients have all the time. And so, we get to this point where it’s just data overload. But what is the core of our technology and the audience segmentation that we do is consumer research so that we can understand that psychographic.
So, we are part of the largest research consumer study in the world. And so, we’re able to get that really dense, rich information. And our data and research and insights team are amazing. And they process a lot of data and make it into the digestible bite-sized information that the rest of the team can be using, and clients can be receiving, so-
Darren:
Now that’s fascinating because one of the other things that I’ve seen in the past is clients that have gone heavily into research, and they’ve ended up with segmentations that don’t naturally translate back into media selection.
They’ll create personas and you go, “Well, that’s great.” You’ve got a … early adopter’s too cliche, but you’ve got this persona that you’ve named. What does that actually mean away from planning media? How did you overcome that?
Jessica:
So, that was definitely one of Haydon’s biggest bangs with the industry. And so, that’s what he was striving to fix, is actually to have it flow through. And so, the way that we do that is our segments and the technology that we’ve built all flow through together.
So, the segments that we’re building with the research flow all the way through to my Laser media planning tool, where we are literally selecting what the segment is. And all of the industry data is overlaid on top of that. And ratings and rates. And so, we’re able to literally plan a TV campaign, a radio campaign, and push it out and buy it.
So, we’re still needing to trade on a demographic because that’s what the industry still does, but it’s really not the demographic that isn’t forming anything. It’s about the actual information that is as upstream.
Darren:
Well, and the traditional, let’s call it traditional media because it’s not non-digital, they’re all in digital domains now, are rapidly trying to get a better understanding of who their audience is, with BVOD and the like.
It drives me crazy, every time I log in, I have to do the whole process again so that they know exactly who I am. I’m just wondering whether they understand that I have twin six-year-olds, which is why I am logging in to watch a kiddies show, or not. Or they think I’m some sort of weird old man that’s watching children’s TV. But it is an issue. It’s still an issue.
Jessica:
Definitely.
Darren:
So, it would never quite completely align, would it?
Jessica:
It depends on the media format for sure. So, when we’re looking at, we’ve invested quite a lot into the consumer research study and what makes us quite different is that we as the agency have purchased a lot of the research and we do a lot of the studies that we own a lot of data exclusively globally because we’ve had that first ride, which is awesome.
And that is in some cases down to the exact radio session and the TV program. And so, for that it is about data matching and then we are able to plan right down to that.
And then it actually gets more murky sometimes in the digital space where there’s so many ways you can target audiences, you can build them in their platforms, in each individual platform. We can go after just specific content; we can go after programs.
There’s so many different ways. So, it’s clear, like there’s not one solution. So, there’s definitely different ways you can do it, but we have invested in the research that allows us to actually take it all the way through.
Darren:
Listening to you, Jess, it makes me realize that the name Audience Precision was actually a very deliberate choice, wasn’t it?
Jessica:
Yes. Very deliberate.
Darren:
You’re really trying to make sure that all of your methodology and all your technology is actually delivering on that ability to be very precise in audience selection.
Jessica:
Yes. You bang on, and our technology stack is called Precise360. So, it’s all through, but it is all about that eliminating the wastage, all those jargony buzzwords. But it is very much about making every dollar hit the audience and count. Yeah.
Darren:
Okay. So, let’s just change direction. So, let’s go back in time. At what point were you sitting there, perhaps at the family dinner table or something? And you went, this seems quite interesting.
Jessica:
Quite early. I think. I mean, I can’t pinpoint it down to an exact dinner or time, but I was just always very exposed to it. And I always was really, really interested in advertising. It was for me, growing up, I either wanted to be in marketing and advertising or be a lawyer. So, they were quite polar opposites.
And I did study a little bit of law to kind of throw it in there, but it was media law. But that was the two things. But I do think that the law was kind of more around watching Suits and really, really loving that whole energy.
Darren:
And wanting to wear really great clothes.
Jessica:
Yes. And loving it. And I liked legal and all that kind of stuff. But the advertising space was really — it just always interested me. I saw and heard of all the great stories of the good old days and all these things from my parents all the time, and just really thought that that kind of industry was a fun, but also something that I naturally hadn’t appealed to and thought I could contribute in.
But I actually in year 10, because I was tossing out what I was going to do, and I had work experience, and so I interned at Atomic 212 because it was one of dad’s friends. And he was like, “Here, go see if you like an agency.” And I worked there for a week and came out and was like, “This is exactly what I want to do. Absolutely.”
So, I think validating that quite early for me was really good because I went into HSE and all the things so clear on what I wanted to do and crystal, that was the right path for me.
Darren:
So, that work experience really consolidated for you all of the things that you imagined it would be like?
Jessica:
Yes. Because I thought, it sounds great, but what if I … it’s not the same. And there’s been some time since when my parents were talking about when they were in the agencies and in the roles that I would be going into.
So, I expected it to be a little different, which it is. So, I hear of all these fun things that were going on.
Darren:
Different sort of fun.
Jessica:
Different sort of fun. Yes. Most champagne and oysters still around. But yeah, I think it was definitely a validating, like okay. Yeah, I’m definitely sure now. Whereas I was maybe 80% sure before then. So, yeah. It’s always been part of what I thought I would end up doing.
Darren:
It’s an interesting insight. It’s whether this is actionable or not, that the role of work experience is so important for the industry to really get people, young people interested in considering this as a career. Because a lot of the industry focus is at graduates, they’ve already done some sort of degree.
But perhaps if we took a more structured approach and invested some time and effort, because I know work experience, people that have come back and gone, “Well, I made some coffees and I sat in the corner.” And it is never real or often, I won’t say never. It’s often not given the sort of importance that it should have.
Jessica:
Yeah. And I totally agree because I think it can be hard on some businesses if they aren’t structured in the right way to support that. Because it is normally only like a week or two weeks. So, it can be hard, and I know the feeling when you’re really overworked at a certain week and you’re like, “Okay, I just don’t have time for this.”
But I think it’s really important to, especially with our industry and the way that it’s going with a lot of people leaving and us needing more youth coming through. Absolutely.
Darren:
And also attracting the talent. Because waiting until they’ve finished a university degree is way too long. Because by then they’ve already sort of gotten in mind which way they’re going.
Jessica:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So, that internship was definitely — I don’t know if you can call it internship, it was a week, it was a work experience internship.
Darren:
I think that it’s an important distinction because work experience is a week. The thing that drives me crazy is the three-month internship, which was often largely unpaid. And they were made to work. Whereas a one week of work experience-
Jessica:
Learning, you’re just learning.
Darren:
You’re just learning, yeah. And it’s structured in the best cases, the agency structures it so that you get whether it’s three hours, half a day here, here, and here to really get an appreciation of the whole of the process.
Jessica:
Absolutely. I went around a few different divisions. I even went out to a media event like conference, and I just thought it was the best ever.
Darren:
And that’s where the champagne and the oysters-
Jessica:
Not yet.
Darren:
And you’re going, “I’m only 16 or 15, I can’t have the champagne,” and the oysters are okay.
Jessica:
I think they took me away after the drinks started rolling out. But no, it was definitely, so from high school, I was definitely into it. And actually, straight out of high school was when I started my internship at Audience Precision.
So, I did first go in as an intern. And it was only supposed to be six months, maybe 12, because I was super determined that I wasn’t going to work at the family business. And so, seven years later, I’m eating my words.
But no, at the time we were a startup, and I was the fifth employee, and I was coming in and it was a really cool setup because our foundation client Warner Music Australia, we were in the corner of their office, so we were in a record label.
So, I’m coming in as this what, 18, 19-year-old stoked. This is the coolest thing ever. And I’m going, “This will be fun.” And I actually started my first week of internship and full-time uni degree the same week because go hard or go home apparently.
And yeah, I loved every second of it. So, I was in there, I was hanging out with the client straight away. And also some artists, which was really cool. And I just loved it from the get-go.
So, whilst there was five employees in the beginning of our team, we were in a much bigger-
Darren:
Pretty cool place.
Jessica:
Very cool place. So, safe to say I was begging to stay after my 12 months and the internship finished, but I then became a media executive. So, and then I continued to work full-time and study full-time for my whole degree.
So, it was definitely difficult. I don’t know if I could do it now. But young me nailed it. And doing it simultaneously definitely was challenging, but it’s one of the things that’s just kind of pushed me forward in that three years was really, really valuable.
And I could tailor my degree to what I was learning in real life. Apply it in real life. Did a few subjects that credited things and it was great.
Darren:
So, and this could be quite controversial, but when you are working full-time, and you’re studying, there’s often a criticism made that the universities are not necessarily teaching the skills and knowledge that’s actually needed to work in the industry.
And it goes to the heart of the question, is the role of tertiary education to make your job ready? Or is it there to teach you the sort of underlying fundamentals that you would then need to build on to apply into the workplace? Do you have an opinion on that?
Jessica:
Yeah, I do remember there being a few textbooks and things that I was reading and going, “Really? This is what I’m learning right now.” And I would bring it to bring it to work and be like, “This is what they’re teaching me, everyone.” And I’d be like, “That’s kind of a year or two old,” and especially in our industry because we move very quickly.
So, I don’t even know what they would be teaching now and then how quickly that gets outdated. But I think, yeah, there’s a lot of foundations and marketing principles, especially a marketing degree that can sometimes go forgotten in our industry.
And it’s really important that they continue to be taught and that that’s what’s being brought through, because that means that the talent coming through will be able to remind people in the industry that have maybe been out of studying for a while, that these are the core principles that everything we do is structured on.
And I know that within our company, we’ve kind of always had those core principles through, but bringing in my textbooks and having that kind of thing also aided that. We were able to go, okay, yeah, that’s actually the theory of it and look how we’ve applied it here.
So, it was definitely a beneficial thing I think to do it simultaneously to also know kind of what to be able to ignore of what isn’t really relevant in this specific path that I was taking, like agency. Maybe in a brand would’ve been that different things I would’ve taken.
But no, it was definitely really good. I think the universities have done really well also to encourage internships through studying. So, there’s a few subjects and things where you can get credit for your degree, for doing an internship. And I was able to credit some subjects and for my work here and I did projects-
Darren:
Well, because you’re doing the work which is the best way of learning. It’s actually doing the work.
Jessica:
Yeah. And you have to do a few assignments and a few things and specifically, which I think was a massive benefit at the time I was going, I just want to do it in media. But you had to do it in a division outside of your job.
So, I did two and I did one in the research department, in the data department of different semesters. And that now is so valuable to me because I know what that team are doing, at least at a deeper level than what I would if I was just in my media lane forever.
So yeah, I think it was definitely really beneficial to do it together, but also challenging. And I was quite sleep deprived during that time, but loved it.
Darren:
Well, I can tell the energy’s still there, so that’s good.
Jessica:
Yes, it came back.
Darren:
No, it’s interesting from my perspective, because Mark Ritson set up the mini MBA course in brand and marketing because his feeling and it’s played out in the success of that business is that a lot of people end up working in marketing media and advertising, that have never been given those foundation principles.
Because the truth of the matter is a lot of those have actually not changed, but the application of them, to your point, changes rapidly. And particularly because of technology. It’s changing consumer behavior as far as the way they consume information. But it’s also then changing how marketers apply those strategies to actually implement them into campaigns and activities.
Jessica:
Absolutely. Yeah. No, I love that angle that he takes and that approach because it is needed and not everyone comes in with a marketing degree and not everyone comes in with a degree at all. And that’s completely fine as long as the foundations don’t disappear.
Darren:
Yeah. Which is what we’ve seen in the past with people coming in and going, all of that’s wrong and you go off in this direction because this works. And it’s like, how can you just dismiss years and years of fundamental knowledge that still works?
Jessica:
And to get long-term success, I think you can get some short-term success. Sure. You can do a few things and get some wins. But especially if we’re talking brand building now, like you, to get a brand longevity and strength, you really need to be using the fundamentals and building it properly.
Darren:
Now going back to the dinner table at home, what was some of the conversation, I imagine — it wouldn’t be all work?
Jessica:
No, definitely not. And I think we have really set up a bit of a boundaries I guess arrangement. And my mom has studied in counseling and strengths coaching and so she knew from the get-go … they’d worked together in the past.
So, she knew from the get-go, okay, if you are going to work together, we got to set some boundaries. And then they’re around our names specifically. So, it’s quite an interesting one. So, essentially I will call my mom, mom in a personal setting, my dad, dad and personal setting.
But their first names Haydon and Kerry is their work names. And if I’m speaking to anyone, whether it be other family members, friends, them, each other about work, they’re Haydon and Kerry.
And I’m so good at it now that it actually genuinely feels like different people. If I am going over to my parents’ house for dinner and something urgent for work comes up, I’ll be like, “H, we need a quick — have a chat out here.” And he goes, “Oh yeah.” And we’re in work. But we don’t do dinner table chats. No way. Because it just gets too-
Darren:
Very wise.
Jessica:
Yeah. It gets too murky otherwise and-
Darren:
But also creates very clear demarcation in the conversation. I’m having a work conversation, now I’m having a personal conversation.
Jessica:
Personal and to the point where I will be having a conversation with my brother who is not in the industry, but chats to me about work goes, how’s it going? Things like that. And I could say, “Oh yeah, that’s something I spoke to Haydon about,” in one sentence. And then straight away after say, “What are we going to get dad for Father’s Day?”
And he knows as well. So, our whole family’s really on board, but I wasn’t always as good at it as I am now. And I did for I think maybe two years only call my dad Haydon. And I think I broke his heart a little bit for a while there because I would say, “Happy Birthday Haydon.” And I literally think I wrote that on a birthday card one year, which is so sad.
But I just didn’t want to be that person who was like “Dad” in the workplace. So, I was just like, I’m going to eliminate all options and I’m just only calling him Haydon or H. So, yeah. But I’m good at it now.
Darren:
Interesting challenge.
Jessica:
Yeah. Interesting.
Darren:
Now look, what about the — because I’ve read a lot not just about advertising, but business generally. The idea of the family business that often there’s a lot of challenges around other people in the business going, “Well, nepotism.”
But then the stories that come out from the other side you have to work twice as hard as anyone else to prove yourself. Is that an experience that you’ve had or has it been a little easier with that demarcation?
Jessica:
Yeah, I think I have a really supportive team and everyone in our company, we’re a smaller company, so that has pros and cons, but it means that you can’t really get away with not being good at your job because it’s very obvious.
So, I think rising through it was definitely difficult. I think it’s more on a personal level for me. I feel like I need to prove myself and go above and beyond. And it’s a bit of imposter syndrome almost to go need to make sure things I earn, I can sometimes not appreciate my successes.
Darren:
We all suffer that, you know?
Jessica:
Yes. At different scales.
Darren:
Everyone suffers that.
Jessica:
Absolutely. But it can sometimes change the way that I view my success because I go, “Well, maybe that’s because of this or this,” but my team and everyone in our company is very supportive and we all work really well together.
So, I’ve never (at least to my face), had nepotism thrown at me. But it is something I’m very conscious of for sure. Because I never want anyone to feel that they’re-
Darren:
You are riding on coattails.
Jessica:
Yes. And I think the name kind of thing is definitely part of that. And I’ve even had team that work for me that it took them a couple weeks to even figure out that we we’re related. And a lot of people have thought that he was my uncle for a while because we’re not affectionate at all. You wouldn’t know that we’re-
Darren:
You’re professional.
Jessica:
Very professional.
Darren:
Business professional.
Jessica:
Yeah. Very, very, very much so. I think it’s just more the genetics in the way that we look the same. It gives it away sometimes. But no, it’s definitely a very clear boundary for everyone.
Darren:
I remember a conversation with an older colleague who had a child working in the industry, not in the same business, but they said it was quite a shock for them when they were referred to as the father of that person rather than, oh, you are …
Jessica:
I love that. I think I’m excited for that day.
Darren:
Well, he said, “I finally realized that my child had made in the industry, as establishing their own credentials because I was no longer relevant.”
Jessica:
That was great. I have had a few media events where, I’ll go, “H, come to this one with me,” and he’ll come and he’ll go, “I actually don’t know anyone here.” And it’s the complete flip where I was completely knowing no one and he was taking me to events and introducing me to all his contacts.
And there are a lot of people now that it’s like, I’m introducing him. And he goes, “Oh my, my gang aren’t here. Like everyone else is. They’re not at this.” So, yeah, it’s definitely over the years progressed with that. But yeah, no, it’s a fun part of it as well.
Darren:
Now the other thing I imagine is the transition you’ve had, talking about media and advertising at home, working as an intern studying and now your role as head of media here at Audience Precision, you would’ve seen many of the issues that the industry’s dealing with. And there’s lots of them.
I think it’s crazy to sort of close your eyes and pretend they don’t exist, but there’s still issues around transparency. There’s still issues with attracting and maintaining talent. There’s still issues with cost issue. Does the industry make enough money to sustain it?
From your perspective, what do you see are the big challenges that are currently sitting on the table?
Jessica:
I do think the consistency around audiences and clean rooms and data and what people are sharing and how they’re able to activate is something that is going to become a little bit murkier as everything starts to become more digital.
I know in the markets in the U.S. you can be buying TV programmatically and we are on a steep trajectory of a lot more data and the industry becoming really, really accessible and digital. And I think the protocols around that and the way that the data is kept kind of secure is something that whilst it might not be too much of a problem right now, is going to be something that we really need to be-
Darren:
And privacy is a big issue as well.
Jessica:
Managing. Yeah. And obviously, there’s been a few scares and things like that and companies getting slapped on the wrist and things like that. Or fines, big ones, either one.
But I think that that is one of the biggest challenges that is a new one because one of the I guess benefits of having parents who are in the industry is they’ve seen a lot before. And so, when things are, oh, this is happening, they’re like, “Oh yeah, something like that happened.” And it’s kind of like a repeat of history.
And so, some things are repetitive problems that never really go away, and they just resurface with a new title. But that specifically is one that I think is a problem or a watch out area as the industry evolves into that whole realm.
Darren:
Yeah. I always felt that as an industry, we missed the opportunity of explaining or selling to consumers the benefit of allowing advertisers to know who they are and what they’re interested in. Because you think about it, ultimately, a marketer doesn’t want to waste money talking to someone that’s not interested, at all.
Jessica:
And a consumer doesn’t want advertising that’s irrelevant to them. And they have proven that. And I think they’ve done studies-
Darren:
But they ad blocking. Their only choice is to block everything when in actual fact they may want or be interested and they may want to in a point in time no more, and then be able to opt out and then opt back in. It’s about giving them more control.
Jessica:
Absolutely. And I think the fear of, someone’s going to take my data is something that the industry has done wrong. If we’d educated the consumers to go, this is actually the power you have essentially, instead of having to pay for things like this, you pay with your data, like that kind of power, which some people are aware of, but some aren’t. If it’s free, you’re paying with your data. That’s the truth of it.
So, I think actually that education of this is how the data is used, here’s the kind of the walls of what we can and can’t do with it, things like that so that people actually understand. And then they’re not so scared of it because the fear is the thing that makes people block everything and just go no. Or the annoyance, either one.
Darren:
Well, and there’s a lot of fear in the marketplace.
Jessica:
Yeah. Massive.
Darren:
And a lot of that’s driven by the amount of scams and spam.
Jessica:
Yeah. Or the texts alone that you’re getting on your phone from your number being leaked in some way. It is definitely scary. And different generations have different level of understanding of what that means and what the data means and things like that. But the scammers are getting very smart and so, it’s a scary kind of world out there in terms of data.
Darren:
So, this whole idea of opting in as a replacement for what is it? Finally, the cookie’s crumbling.
Jessica:
Yeah. The cookie’s crumbling, finally.
Darren:
But now they’re saying the tanks are going to be worse than the cookies, so-
Jessica:
Yeah, there’s constantly issues I think with relying on too much of the actual data like that, which is why again, we bring it back to the consumer research and going, okay, what kind of content online, for example, are they interested in?
Because whether or not they’ve clicked on a sport page or not, if we know that they’re into sport, then you can go there regardless. And so, yeah, things like that. But I know there’s a lot of creepy ad formats coming out. You can say, “Hi Jess, here’s the local store that your product available at.”
And it’s kind of like, if you don’t know that people have your data, that is going to freak you out. So, for me, “I’d be like, great campaign, who did this,” like look into it. But for a lot of my friends even, that’s too much. “What is going on here? How do they know where I am and my name and too much.”
Darren:
I was shown, demonstrated a out of home in shopping malls where they had facial recognition.
Jessica:
I’ve seen that.
Darren:
And they would track you as you were walking through and serving you up. It was like something out of that Minority Report with Tom Cruise, where it’s like they’re just tracking you through the shopping mall and it’s like, I’m sorry …
Jessica:
It’s too much. Yeah, it is a bit, I think there’s that fine line that we dance with how personalized, too personalized and all that kind of stuff. So, it’s the watch out for so much data and capability of targeting that the industry as a whole needs to be aware of with some guidelines and parameters because one few mistakes will tarnish a lot.
Darren:
Okay. So, Jess, here’s a big question for you. Whose responsibility is that? Because we’ve got industry bodies. We’ve got the IAB, we’ve got in Australia, the AANA, we’ve got the media MFA, IMAA, we’ve got ASIC or not-
Jessica:
Consumer, ACC.
Darren:
ACC. That’s the one. Whose role is it to actually set these parameters? Who should be setting the standards because just allowing individual advertisers to set the standard is not going to work because they’ll never agree. And each one will have different requirements and-
Jessica:
Absolutely.
Darren:
So, and I know as an industry we don’t like government intervention. We’d much prefer to be self-regulated.
Jessica:
Yes, absolutely. That is a big question. I do think that whilst there is a part to play for everyone, an individual, you need to be taking responsibility for your clients and your campaigns. And clients seem to be taking responsibility as well of their campaigns.
I do think, it hopefully will stop at industry body level and be able to be something that we can work out within our industry, as you say, and not have to involve a government regulation.
But I dare say that if we can’t, then the only way to actually protect consumers and protect the future of the industry will be legal intervention to those that don’t comply. And doesn’t follow. So, it doesn’t ruin it for the rest of us, basically.
Darren:
Because as we’ve seen in the EU, when they introduced the privacy laws there, they will naturally overstep as a way of protecting the individuals to the point that it becomes very difficult for the business to be able to maintain profitability and growth.
Jessica:
Absolutely. And I think if us as an industry in Australia can put a bit of a line in the sand and do it ourselves, then that will save a lot of pain and heartache for everyone.
But if certain people and certain brands and agencies and things don’t comply, then it will potentially ruin for everyone. And we will see a similar trend to what’s happened overseas, unfortunately. But we’ll have to wait and see on that one.
Darren:
Well, I have to say, with someone as bright and intelligent and enthusiastic as you, it’s certainly looking very good.
Jessica:
Hopefully, hopefully. Yeah.
Darren:
We’ve run out of time unfortunately, but it’s been a great conversation. Thank you.
Jessica:
Thank you. It’s been great to be on.
Darren:
So, just before we finish, I have a question for you. If you didn’t go into advertising, what sort of law do you think you’d want to practice?
