Peter Kirk is a multi-award-winning Indigenous TVC and film director, creator and connector at Campfire x. Campfire x is an Indigenous-owned and run creative consultancy agency that brings Indigenous thinking and talent into the mainstream by unifying the 97% of Australians who are not Indigenous with the 3% who are. They develop creative strategies that communicate to all of Australia and de-risk how companies and brands engage with the world’s oldest storytellers, enriching the nation’s view of itself.
Peter shares the benefits and challenges of working with Indigenous creators and storytellers and the fundamental changes we need to make as an industry, brand leaders and individuals to access this benefit directly and maximise the performance of genuine and authentic storytelling.
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CEOs and the boards don’t care about any of those things either.
They don’t care about how creative or how well it was shot or what awards it won.
They care about…
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you enjoy the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the word and wisdom of our guests each week.
Now, Campfire x is an indigenous owned and run creative consultancy that brings indigenous thinking and talent into the mainstream, by unifying the 97% of Australians who are not indigenous with the 3% who are.
They develop creative strategies that communicate to all Australia and de-risk how companies and brands engage with the world’s oldest storytellers, enriching the nation’s view of itself. Please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, a multi-award-winning indigenous TV and film director, creator and connector at Campfire x, Peter Kirk. Good day, Kirky.
Peter:
How are you, Darren? You’re well? I feel very honored and humbled because you’ve had a lot of heavy hitters on this podcast. So, I’m in the company of them, so it’s very special to be in their company.
Darren:
Okay. So, let’s start this conversation because the reason I wanted to sit down with you and have a yarn is because Australia is really struggling, I believe, with an identity crisis, that we’re somewhere torn and we are increasingly polarized.
And it’s not just Australia, we’re seeing this in a lot of Western cultures becoming increasingly polarized. Last year’s vote on the votes to parliament, the referendum deepened that in many ways. And I’d be really interested in how you think it’s changed the sort of … is it polarizing Australia more or is it actually just one further step?
Peter:
Really, really good question. So, there’s a couple of things there I think we need to talk about. To get anywhere challenging, you have to go through a challenge. So, to get an outcome that’s a long-lasting outcome means you often have to go through a bit of work and have some uncomfortable conversations and put some agendas on the table that people don’t necessarily want to put on the table.
That means a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear, a lot of negativity, a lot of noise, and a lot of stereotyping is going to be bandied around because to get from A to B, people have to let go of where they were to get where they want to be. And some people don’t want to get to B. Which is-
Darren:
There’s a vested interest.
Peter:
It’s a vested interest, which is a bigger conversation. The question you’re asking me with what happened last year, how has that shaped things? I think it’s shaped things a lot, but I don’t think it’s shaped things for the reason that people think it has. And let me explain.
However you look at it, last year’s Voice was a disaster. I’ve got a lot of friends who are First Nations. I’ve got a lot of friends who are from various countries. I’ve got a lot of friends who are White, Aussie middle-class, some of my dearest friends catch up and watch the footy with them and have a beer and have a yarn.
It wasn’t Australia’s fault that Australia voted, voted no. Removing all the rhetoric, removing all the anger, removing all the hatred, removing all that. Essentially what boiled down to was we as a First Nations population, we as people, didn’t do a good enough job to convince Australia of the benefits of voting yes.
That’s not Australia’s fault. That’s our fault. Now, I’ve spoken out and I’ve been on the record, and I’ve gone out there and I’ve said the campaigns for the Voice should never have been undertaken by white companies. Because I believe wholeheartedly in my heart of hearts that if the messaging, if the comms, if the strategy, if everything was done by First Nations agencies, and there’s plenty out there, I believe we would’ve had a different result.
And I know back to jump in, and the data around Brigg’s campaign, I’ve just googled it, demonstrates that. So, yes, we are going through a transition as a country. That transition should have been easier if the messaging and the reasons for that transitioning when needed, and it wasn’t done.
Darren:
And actually delivered. And look to pick up on your first point, Kirky, yes, anything worth doing is usually hard. If it was easy, it would’ve just happened. So, if it’s worth doing.
Secondly, I think you’re right. In many ways, what a vast majority, and I’ve got a brother who’s White, middle-class, Australian who voted no because he felt like it was somehow excluding him, rather than being framed of including.
And I think that’s part of this whole trend we’re seeing globally, which is divide and conquer, split into the haves, the have nots, the woke and the non-woke or whatever. There seems to be this what do they call it, cultural war. And yet there’s something fundamental. The most common used word you hear in marketing is authenticity or the other one is integrity.
And yet, in many ways, we’ve got something that has incredible integrity, which is our shared history as Australians. I grew up in an era when Australia didn’t start until 1770, when Cook sailed down the east coast of Australia and landed a botany bay and claimed it for the king.
And yet, it’s now very clear, and I’ve got children that are growing up in an era when they’re getting told and educated that that actually happened — that Australia actually started 60,000 years earlier. So, there’s a big change happening. It’s just not pulling it together.
Peter:
I think it comes down to how you measure change. And I think it comes down to what is change in regards to the benefit of how that could benefit Australia. You mentioned that there’s a bit of a cultural war going on at the moment before, and I agree, but I think it’s more of a class war.
I think we’re actually experiencing first time I’ve really ever seen a class war happen in Australia between rich/poor, religion/non-religion, societal/socioeconomic, et cetera.
No better example than two nights ago, two days ago, a woman was murdered in Belmore through domestic violence that hardly got any traction in the media. And the outrage that has happened in the past around domestic violence, it was minuscule. And I can’t work that out. Every life is so precious, and every life is so valuable. Where’s the outrage for a woman in a flat in Belmore?
So, I think it comes down to how do we measure the change and how we measure outcomes. Everyone talks about equality of opportunity, equality of opportunity. And I get it, but we’re not measuring, we’re not putting KPIs or quality of outcomes, and we’re not putting KPIs on outcomes of delivery and outcomes of inclusion.
And I hate to say it because I love our industry, unfortunately, it doesn’t love me back, but I love our industry. We’re probably the worst when it comes to this, because why? There’s a lot of status. There’s a lot of egos, there’s a lot of narcissism, and there’s a lot of insecurity.
So, yes, there is change. Completely agree. And people want change, and people want change, and people want to do the right thing. I honestly believe most Australians want to do the right thing in this space, absolutely, no doubt.
However, they want to do it quickly, and they want a prescriptive outcome. One plus one is two. You mean if I do this, all of a sudden, we’re going to connect to First Nations people and we’re going to be cool, and we’re going to be woke, and we’re going to be fantastic. We’re going to have a rep, and we’re going to be all of a sudden working with First Nations people.
It doesn’t happen like that. It happens through yarning and uncomfortable conversations and being put in an environment that is uncomfortable and giving up some of the aspects of your life that have been created through aspects of your parents’ life. And I think you can guess what I’m trying to say.
As opposed to saying, well, I’m in a position of authority, so I’m going to help someone who is in a less position of authority than me is not the right way to look at it. By saying, I want to work with another group of people because this is going to enhance my work and enhance my outcomes and make the environment better.
And there are KPIs for this, and there’s so much data around this, and there’s so much ways of measuring this. I’m surprised it hasn’t really sunk in yet. Ruby little dog, she’s fast asleep, she’s fantastic.
So, as an industry, we have to have a reckoning. That reckoning is not going to come from agencies. It’s not going to come from media companies. It isn’t going to come from ECDs. It isn’t going to come from CEOs or MDs.
It’s going to come from brands. And yes, brands are leading the way. However, there still is a propensity to turn around and say, what is the quickest possible solution so we can demonstrate we actually care in this space, as opposed to what is the ROI, how much is it going to cost us? What do we need to do to actually start this journey?
And then put some KPIs around this so we can demonstrate this is actually making money to us. It’s a different mindset, but it’s the right mindset.
Darren:
Yeah. And as you say, we’re starting to see some changes, but what are the upsides for brands? And I know there’s a huge amount of fear in the business community, and again, reinforced with the referendum in that there were companies that came out making a stand particularly on the yes side that were then criticized for their position on it, Qantas, Bunnings or Westfarmers and a couple of others.
So, a lot of brands are very cautious about this. And yet, there seems to be, from my perspective, a real upside. One is tapping into a culture that is established by thousands of years, tapping into a culture that is rich in a history of oral storytelling.
What are the opportunities for brands, because what they don’t want to get is into a political discussion around indigenous welfare. But how do they tap into the indigenous culture, the First Nations culture in a way that actually works for them as well?
Peter:
It’s a really good question. Well, that comes down to leadership, that comes down. So, a couple of years ago, I was at a function somewhere. I was at one of the multiple industry conferences, and the CEO from LinkedIn got up, and she said this, she said, “Look, everyone’s talking about diversity and inclusion, and everyone’s talking about different voices in the room. What everyone’s not talking about is, it is hard because we work with people that are like us. We hire people that are like us.”
That’s just human nature. I don’t, but most people do hire someone that they can feel the most comfortable with. And generally, that means similar backgrounds, similar beliefs, similar norms, and similar mores.
So, this person said, “Inclusion is hard, and diversity is hard because you’re bringing people in that are challenging the team and the crew.” And then she said, “But a good leader should manage that.”
So, this is where good leadership needs to step in from these brands, from the CMOs, from the CEOs, from the MDs, from the chairman, and say, “We are going in this direction. We are committing to this. We are putting money aside to this, and we are going to build out some KPIs that demonstrate the success in this.”
As opposed to say, “Well, we believe in this, however, it’s all a bit too hard. What’s the quickest win we can do to show we’re going on this journey? What’s little as much money we can throw at it to actually get something going and something that’s got some good optics around it, et cetera.”
Going back to the brands that came out to support the Voice, I agree with you. They took a lot of stick. However, let’s just drill down with a couple of those brands. Qantas came out to support the Voice, whilst at the same time they were rotting their customers.
They were selling tickets that they didn’t even have. They were laying off staff, multiple, multiple numbers, which court cases now prove that they should have done. And that’s opened … there was many things that Qantas were doing that weren’t really for the benefit of everyone.
So, I don’t believe people were upset with Qantas for supporting the Voice. I believe people were upset with Qantas, with the hypocrisy. Again, leadership.
Telstra came out and supported the Voice. Again, Telstra sold dodgy phone plans into First Nations communities multiple occasions and turned out to get fined by the regulator record numbers of fines for selling dodgy plans into remote communities.
So, again, the hypocrisy of it. So, I personally don’t think Australia was upset with these brands because they were supporting the Voice. I think they were upset with their brands because of their hypocrisy these brands were showing.
Darren:
There was also elements of the politics of it as well. Because it became incredibly politicized. But it’s interesting because at the very core of both of those examples is an undermining of credibility, their authenticity, what you say and what you do have to align.
Peter:
That’s where the job of a good leader is. That’s the job of a good CEO. If the next question is, are there good CEOs out there? Yes. Yeah, there are. But they’re not many. And it’s tough. It’s tough because Australia is going through a change, and this is where the job of the CEO and one could argue Albanese is a CEO, has to manage this change?
Is Alba doing a good job managing the change? Not at all. Is Dutton doing a good job managing the change? Not at all. Are Coles, Woolies, Telstra doing a good job of managing that change? And they use the blanket of fear as an excuse.
We want to commit to this, but we don’t want to be seen doing the wrong thing, or we don’t want to come across as tokenistic, or we don’t want to be seen jumping on a bandwagon. They’re all excuses for the lack of leadership from these brands. And there are some good leaders out there.
Unfortunately, we lost one of the best one couple weeks ago, as we all know, she was one of the most amazing leaders. But they use as an excuse not to commit, because again, the KPIs for our big businesses don’t have measuring tools in this system.
Measure DEI, measure inclusion, measure acceptance, measure changing the thought process, measure changing the norms and the mores and the outcomes. That’s where a good leader’s got to jump in and say, “We are going to create some measuring tools around this that demonstrate that this thing works.”
Darren:
Because it’s interesting, and in the introduction, and this is straight from Campfire x’s website, we’re talking about First Nation people representing, I think the ABS said it’s 3.8% at the 2021. So, if you round up it’s 4%.
And then there’s 96% of Australians that are not First Nations. Except that of that 96%, around 48% of them are not Australian born or don’t have parents that are Australian born. So, we’re already quite a mixed population.
Peter:
But here’s the flaw in that theory, that 50% of migrants are very, very poorly represented in corporate Australia.
Darren:
Of course.
Peter:
So, again, drill down, what nationality are the CEOs, what nationality are the MDs, what nationality are the leaders? Where are they from? What schools did they go to? Where did they grow up? What post codes are they living in?
There was an amazing stat that came out from PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2019, I believe, I could be wrong. 92% of everyone that works in the advertising and media industry live in five post codes in Sydney.
Darren:
That’s true.
Peter:
And I think it’s three in Melbourne. And so, we live under this illusion that we’re a multicultural country. We’re not, we’re multinational. And it’s a big difference. It’s a massive difference. We are not multicultural. Let me finish.
Darren:
Explain that.
Peter:
How many mosques are there in the eastern suburbs?
Darren:
I don’t know of any.
Peter:
No, that’s my point. I’m not pointing out the people from the eastern suburbs. What’s the difference in socioeconomic income between the eastern suburbs and Blacktown or Rooty Hill?
Darren:
Yeah, huge.
Peter:
Huge, massive. Where do-
Darren:
Well, you can’t buy a house in the eastern suburbs for under 10 million. Whereas you could probably buy a whole block.
Peter:
So, where does that mean most of the migrants end up, most of new Australians end up?
Darren:
In the West.
Peter:
The level of crime’s far bigger out there. Why? Because higher unemployment rate, lack of English, lack of opportunities, lack of pathways, a cultural gap between Australia and what Australia is and my beliefs and all that comes into play.
Darren:
Peter, for the vast majority of brands, that’s actually their customers. The eastern suburbs as a percentage of the total population is a very small amount.
Peter:
I’ve seen some passion from you, Darren. It’s fantastic.
Darren:
Yeah. People talk about the top 1% of income earners. But that is a very small part of the market. The vast majority of revenue for Telstra, Woolworths, Coles, all of these businesses, actually comes from the majority of the people-
Peter:
You are a hundred percent right. But again, let’s drill down. What’s the background of most of the people that work in marketing in those brands? What’s school did they go to? What’s their education levels? Where do they live?
Just because people are buying their brands out in western Sydney doesn’t mean the people that are making the decisions to sell those brands to the people out in western Sydney, come from western Sydney.
No better example will you meet that are show in the ABC called The Gruen Transfer. You’ve got a bunch of advertising people coming on, critiquing other advertising people’s work. And in the history of The Gruen Transfer, I don’t believe we’ve ever had a First Nations person come on that show, believe me because I’ve been pushing hard for it.
They’ve now blocked me, by the way, on Facebook. Fantastic. Great. We’re so diverse. The point I’m trying to make is, if we have true diversity and the decision makers have true diversity, then those decision makers are going to be opening up their doors to people out there and say, “We want your opinion. We want you to come in and share your thoughts with us.”
As opposed to, I’m going to tell a single mother of four people from Lebanon on why they should buy my product. Even though I’m from Vaucluse, or Pyrmont or North Sydney, or Crows Nest or Waverton.
The disconnect is laughable. Recently we took a client of ours way out to Rooty Hill for a cultural immersion day and a strategy day. And we started the day with a First Nations woman that came in and said, “I’m going to teach you guys how to do weaving.”
And we sat around for the first two hours of that session, and we were learning how to weave, and as we were weaving, we were yarning. And the client came back the next day and said that’s one of the best starts we’ve ever had to a strategy day. Because it was a different way of thinking. It was a different way of doing things. It was a different culture that was brought into to white Australia.
Darren:
It’s disruptive. It disrupts people from the way they usually think because one of the big problems with what you described earlier about people only wanting to work with people like themselves is that that encourages group think.
That the same values, the same ideas, the same thoughts just get … some people call it the bubble or shouting into the vacuum, is that you just hear the same thing over and again, and your beliefs are reinforced back to you that you’re right, because of that social media is a prime example of that.
Peter:
No better example will you get than Talkback Radio.
Darren:
Yeah.
Peter:
I’m outraged Ben Fordham, I’m outraged that you are outraged. Well, let’s be outraged together.
Darren:
So, Campfire x, first of all, I love the name.
Peter:
Thank you.
Darren:
Because it immediately conjures for me, the campfire that I grew up with in the country of sitting around and people talking sharing stories. I remember one campfire up in the in the Highlands where someone pulled out a guitar and suddenly there was a sing along. It’s amazing how campfires have that ability to make everyone equal.
Peter:
Because we all sit around the campfire. It’s circular. There’s no levels of hierarchy or status. It’s everyone’s equal because they’re all sitting around the campfire.
Darren:
Is that the motivation of calling it Campfire x and what’s x? The unknown factor?
Peter:
Campfire plus X, Google Campfire x, Facebook Meta, Campfire x, whomever works with us, or we work with. The motivation is to hopefully showcase to corporate Australia that there is a different way of doing things.
Darren:
Okay.
Peter:
That’s the motivation. That if you do things differently, you’ll get a different outcome, which probably will be a better outcome. And you’re right, the comment you made that before that or you might have said it offline, that Australia’s going through a change, and there’s no doubt there’s interest in this.
A hundred percent. You’re a hundred percent. But the brands aren’t doing that. The brands are, if the desire is from everyday Australians to lean in more to First Nations, which I believe there is. And you believe there is, and most people I talk to is there’s been a shift and absolutely.
Darren:
Well, I think there’s a dissatisfaction with the status quo. I think people are feeling like most of the institutions we grew up with, that our parents told us to follow have fallen by the wayside. That we have this huge cynicism, whether it’s the political structures, the two-party political structure we’ve seen the growth of the Independent.
Whether it’s the organized religions, whether it’s the medical fraternity, there’s so many things that there’s all these question marks over that people are looking for something. And that’s why authentic is so important. And, and integrity is so important.
People want to believe in something. And often they’re led into a path of believing in something that when they question it or dig a bit deeper, they find it’s just like everything else that lacks integrity. That there is something alluring about the oldest continuous culture in the world.
And I’ve got a wife who’s Chinese and the Chinese talk about their 5,000 years of history. We are sitting here with a culture in Australia that extends back-
Peter:
8,000 years. Yeah. You’re a hundred percent right. There’s one-
Darren:
There’s something there.
Peter:
There’s one big caveat to what you’re saying though. Unfortunately, we are living in a society and an industry where the people who are deciding what is authentic live in a bubble and grew up in a bubble. So, let me give you an example. A couple years ago, you’re looking at your watch. It’s a good-
Darren:
Yeah, something …
Peter:
A couple years ago I got a call from an agency, I’m not going to mention their name, and they were doing a campaign for … if I say it, I’ll make — they were doing a campaign for a well-known First Nations landmark, and they wanted to hire First Nations crew. Great.
The ECD said to me, “If you could send me through five or six show rules of who you think’s a good First Nation cinematographer, and I’ll pick the best one.” There are so many problems with that sentence.
So, we’ve got, this guy was Pommy. We’ve got a white Pommy guy from London deciding who’s authentic and who’s real in the First Nation space. So, they can be considered good enough to be hired by a white agency to work on a First Nations campaign.
Darren:
By what standard? Yeah.
Peter:
By what standard? And I said, “Mate, I’m not going to, why would I waste my time?” Because your perception of what is real and authentic is completely different than my perception of what is real and authentic.
If you’re going to work with First Nations, then how about I arrange for you to have a cup of coffee with five of them, and you sit down and have a yarn. He said, “Mate, I don’t have time. So, forget it.” And they ended up hiring-
Darren:
Not really committed to the idea anyway.
Peter:
No, not committed. So, their perception of authenticity, and I lost friends over this. I’ve lost friends, some of my best friends were ECDs and they were voting yes for the Voice. And I was questioning them why? And that blew up. And we’ll never talk again. And that’s okay. That doesn’t bother me at all.
You are right. People want authenticity, and they want real, and they want genuine. However, the people that are deciding what’s real and what’s genuine don’t come from a completely diverse background.
Even though they’ll tell you, they will. Most of the ECDs in the advertising industry are male. Most are private school educated. Most grow up in high socioeconomic environments. I’m not saying all I’m saying most.
And most have come through the system where they started in ad agency in the age of 18, 19, and lived in this environment and came all the way through this environment. And I’m not devaluing their client, I’m not devaluing their success. I’m devaluing that. The fact that they’re turning around and saying that their authentic.
Darren:
Yeah. Their approach doesn’t accommodate doing something in a different way. They’re bringing their learnt structures, judgment structures. And that’s the interesting part because one of the things you say, Campfire x is about connecting people, connecting people to First Nations talent, connecting people to First Nations storytelling, connecting people to mobs, to really be able to get those localized.
Because that’s one of the things that blew me away is the people talk about First Nations, but we’re actually talking about hundreds of different nations around it wasn’t Australia. There was literally — we’re on Wonga land. But that’s in your nation.
But it does require you to actually rethink or at least be open to a new way of engaging and talking. Because just bringing your white fella thinking to that environment is actually colonialism, intellectual colonialism.
Peter:
It is intellectual repression and intellectual colonialism. So, let me you one of the things that we preach at Campfire x, and it’s one of the things that I think could benefit Australia in the whole. Most people, when we start having a yarn with them, they start with the conversation of saying, well, how can I help? How can I help First Nations people? What am I got to do? We’ll just leave that, leave all that.
Darren:
I mean, just in that you can hear the patronizing.
Peter:
Let’s just leave that out hanging out there for a minute.
Darren:
How can we help you fella?
Peter:
How can we help you? Right. I don’t want your help. But anyway, that’s a really wrong way of looking at it because most of Australia come at the theory and come at the belief that we are there to help the 3%. They’re not.
If you change it and change a sentence and change the way of thinking to saying, “Hang on a second, as a brand, as a CMO, as a leader, how can I educate my customers in First Nations ways of thinking and knowledge?”
So, it’s not about helping the 3%, it’s about educating the 97%. And once you change that brain shift, you’re going to start to think, “Well, hang on a second. The opportunities are endless.” We can start doing campaigns that involve indigenous design, indigenous thinking.
We can start doing campaigns where we’re going to yarn with an old leader from up north. And he could talk about the rivers and the streams and how they used to fish and how that can come into sustainability. You know?
Darren:
You’re right. And I think that’s very much that colonial education, which said, we’ve got to somehow, as the privileged white people reach out and help the poor black person, the downtrodden. Rather than here is a culture that has thrived and survived 80,000 years that is an asset and inextricably linked to being Australia that you can tap into.
Peter:
A Hundred percent. And that goes back to my comment before of a good leader’s got to build out the KPIs to measure this. Because unfortunately, corporate world is about KPIs and it’s about profit and loss, and that’s okay. We’re not all living in some dream world of pixies and rainbows. I get that.
But you build out the KPIs and there’s a accounting theory called triple bottom line, where you can look at the benefit of this and put some dollar figures against it. It’s really not that hard. You’re talking to a guy that was in bottom maths of class, and I am bottom maths, games and puzzles, maths at school.
And even I can get the concept of triple bottom line and how you can put some numbers against it and some numbers against the outcomes and ways of measuring the success of leaning in and bringing in First Nations and other ways of thinking into the development of a campaign, the development of an execution, the development of strategy, and have different hands in the creation of this campaign.
I’m going to tell the advertising industry a little secret here. Bazza and Shazza from Mount Penrith don’t care how creative your wonderful, your piece of work is. They could not care less about how many awards you’ve won. They couldn’t care less about if this is the best ad, the most best shot ad with the best DP and the best director and an award-winning director, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don’t care.
All they care about is getting their kids to school on time, paying the bills, being healthy, loving the family, all that. Everything that goes to living every single day. That’s what they care about.
So, again, the agency lands needs to redefine their KPIs and stop looking at awards and stop looking at status and look at inclusion as a way of measuring success. That’s what Campfire x does.
Darren:
Because there’s a flip side to what you just said, which is the CEOs and the boards don’t care about any of those things either. They don’t care about how creative or how well it was shot or what awards it won. They care about getting their customers, what did you call them?
Peter:
Bazza and Shazza.
Darren:
Bazza and Shazza.
Peter:
It’s going to be a marketing principle I’ll teach at university one day, Bazza and Shazza.
Darren:
Bazza and Shazza buy more of the product more often at a higher premium price because they feel that that represents value to them.
So, there’s really a disconnect. Because earlier on Kirky, you said it’s not going to be changed by the agencies. It’s going to be changed by the marketers. And the marketers are today under more pressure than ever to prove and justify their budget and the investment that they make “brand” as delivering top line growth and bottom-line profits.
Peter:
But let’s drill down with the marketers. You’re a hundred percent right. So, we’ve got the marketers. So, let’s just use, I don’t know, I don’t want to mention a brand because they’re all going to send me things. Let’s just make up a brand XYZ production. God, that was an actual company.
Darren:
Wagga.
Peter:
Wagga Bread Rolls. Wagga Bread Rolls has just spent the last 18 months or 12 months going on a massive procurement process to appoint an agency through whatever systems. And whatever bells and whistles.
Generally, it comes down to price and creativity. There’s not much in that about diversity. There’s not much in that about inclusion. So, when Wagga industry says, well, we want to start leaning into the space more, who are they going to reach out to?
They’re not going to reach out to Campfire x, they’re going to reach out to the agency of record. Now that agency of record is going to reach out to Campfire x and say, “Can you come and work with us?” So, we are getting a dilution of a dilution of a dilution.
This is where the brands have to say, “We are going to redefine our KPIs. So, this is important.” Tourism Australia did it with the Tourism Australia pitch. We didn’t get it, but it was integral to Tourism Australia that First Nations voices were included in that pitching process.
So, again, that system and that way of measuring suitability needs to be looked at. And that’s where the KPIs need to be redefined. And yes, this is what Campfire x does.
But I’m telling the brands it’s not easy. But the outcomes far, far exceed the current way of doing things, which is, let’s face it, the same people getting the same work, the same prod houses is getting the same work, the same directors getting the same work, the same DOPs getting the same work, the same everyone, the same system, rinse and repeat over and over and over and over again.
So, if I’m a First Nations creator from Penrith, how the hell am I going to get an opportunity? Because the chance of a ECD or the chance of a CMO coming across my work and going, “I made a call. We are working with this person no matter what,” is very, very poor because they don’t live in that ecosystem.
To change the thinking, you’ve got to change the environment. That’s again, what Campfire x does. To change the outcome, you’ve got to change the environment. You aren’t going to change the environment if you are leaving Coogee Beach every day and catching a bus into work and working in the CBD and then coming home and doing that five days a week and on the weekend going for a surfer, I’m not having to go with people that live in Coogee, I can assure you. I’m saying-
Darren:
No, but it’s when you live a lifestyle, how do you get diversity of thought when you’re having the same experience over and over and over again. And look, to be honest, that’s the thing that cracks me up about DE&I.
First of all, it’s turned into a racial thing, and diversity means almost like there’s a scorecard. I feel like it’s the Noah’s Ark effect. Do we have two of everything because we’re about to flood the land.
I actually think it’s more interesting to talk about from the perspective of representation, how do you represent, you said they weren’t multicultural, they were multi-nation. But how do you represent the diversity of the audience?
Because you need to have experience. And I’ve met many creative people that said, oh … men that say, “I can write about women’s sanitary products because I understand that,” and so on and so forth. But deep, intimate understanding requires more than just reading about it or secondhand experience.
Peter:
It requires you to get out of your comfort zones. The problem is not many people want to get out of their comfort zones. The problem is, not many people want to feel uncomfortable because it’s not nice to feel uncomfortable.
It’s not nice to have your way of life questioned and your beliefs questioned, and your background questioned and where you are questioned. And no one really wants to go through that.
My argument is, and Campfire x’s belief is that’s where the magic happens. That’s where the best outcomes come. And challenge us too. We want to be challenged as a company.
Recently all that campaign brief stuff came out with all the mail. I didn’t see one single post about the lack of people from diverse backgrounds, not just women, but lack of people from diverse backgrounds as an ECD. I know a, a Sudanese girl that escaped the war that is desperately trying to get into the advertising industry. Desperate. No one-
Darren:
Very hard to do. It’s very hard. Very hard. I think — maybe it’s justification, half the population are women.
Peter:
Sure.
Darren:
So, first of all, at the very biggest hurdle the industry’s fallen. Before we get into then the percentage based on race, based on religion. I mean, half of Australia’s population has no religion. But that doesn’t mean that Muslim, Hindu, Christians of the various types and that don’t represent a part of the population.
Peter:
A really good point. I get what you’re saying. And believe me, I completely agree, and I dig what Jasmin was saying. And some of my best friends are female creatives, half the pop …
Okay. So, let’s just take that point. What brands came out in support of saying to the female people agitating to make that change? What brands came out and said you had agency, unless you show us your pathways to put a woman as the ECD, you will not have our contract against-
Darren:
No.
Peter:
No. That’s my point. Absolutely zero.
Darren:
And I’ve had those conversations. We run pitches. Because we collect information on which agencies people … BIPOC, which agencies are women owned. The standard response is I just want the best agency.
Peter:
In their subjective opinion.
Darren:
No. But they also, in that statement, say that the two are mutually exclusive. That somehow if you’re a B Corp or any of those other things, that somehow that eliminates being the best agency anyway. And that’s not true.
Peter:
It’s not true. It’s not true. It’s all optics.
Darren:
There’s all hierarchy of importance.
Peter:
That was a perfect moment in the history of advertising and media for the brands to turn around and say to the agencies, “This is wrong.”
The parity of women and the quality of women as creatives is clearly not being — unfair. So, as a brand, as a Telstra, we spend millions on advertising, agencies you’ve got 18 months to get your house in order and have equality and have gender parity or you will not win the account.
Now, what the brands haven’t realized is how powerful a message to that is to the consumers, to the women consumers. To the women consumers, that’s one of the most powerful sales tool you can get. That we are taking a stand.
Brands have got to stop having a better each way. And they are, they’re trying to have a better each way. They’re going, well, this is the way it’s always been done, and this is our traditional agency and this is that, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s all bullshit.
Brands can make a call tomorrow and turn around and say, “As one of the biggest spenders, ad spenders in this country, we want to see you hit these KPIs. We want to see you hit.” And that includes women and that includes First Nations and that includes people of color that in that includes Middle Eastern.
Whatever the KPIs are, guess what? Why aren’t they doing it? Because the very people that are responsible for making the decisions come from the same background as the very people that work in the ad agencies.
Darren:
And it’s not just that issue. They’re not doing it about climate crisis. They’re not demanding that agencies address issues around their greenhouse gas emissions. They’re not demanding that they enforce a DEI structure. It’s bundled up as ESG, which sits over there in most big corporates and isn’t part of the marketing or the overall strategy.
Peter:
There’s a-
Darren:
Isn’t there a danger? Sorry, Kirky, isn’t there a danger, this is all about doing things to look right, or is there actually an upside, like you’ve already told me this is not easy. It comes with some risk. So, there has to be an upside to this.
Peter:
The upside is it’s better than what is now, what we’ve got now because it isn’t working. And that’s what-
Darren:
Allows you to stand out. And that’s the number one problem.
Peter:
It allows you as a brand to say, this is what we believe in. Now we all saw this happen back in 2020 with the Black Lives Matter and all that. Where’s all that gone? That was great. Channel 10 went to black for 30 seconds and a couple of shows and said, we support Black Lives Matter. Okay. Channel 10, great. What are you doing for First Nations?
If you support Black Lives Matter, what are you doing for First Nations people in Australia? Where’s the opportunities? Where’s the pathways? Where’s the outcomes? Where’s the KPIs? Et cetera. I’m not having to go at Channel 10, using an example because some of my good friends work at Channel 10.
This is an opportunity for brands to turn around and lead us and show leadership and say, this is our stance. This is the stance we are taking. Nothing pisses me off more than a brand to turn around and say, well, we believe in this. Dip their toe in the water and say, well, it’s all too hard. And then walk away.
Because it’s not hard. Well, sorry, it is hard, but it needs to be hard. But once you come out the other end, everything about that company’s going to be better because here’s the juxtaposition in all this, these brands, these major brands, where do you think the majority of their workers come from?
Darren:
Not from those handful of postcards.
Peter:
Not from those handful of postcards. So, people are going to start feeling proud when they show up to work and their company is showing, we believe in this. We are listening to you, even though you are from out West, even though you are from, I don’t know, Concord, whatever. Again, I’m not saying …
I will certainly feel proud of going to work and work harder again, KPIs and work harder and have a better output knowing that my company has leaned in and said, we believe in this. We believe in supporting you guys publicly. Not internally.
Publicly through their messaging, through their strategy, through their comms, through their advertising. And this is the biggest frustration about the advertising. This industry can change the way Australia thinks. Has the opportunity change the way Australia thinks.
Has the opportunity to say to Bazza and Shaza, we hear you, but they’re not, they’re not. Because the brands are too caught up in the system of measuring what works and not bringing in other systems that measure how other things might work.
Darren:
I think there’s definitely … and you’ve said it, it takes courage, it takes-
Peter:
Takes leadership.
Darren:
It takes leadership. It takes courage. And it also takes people finding a way to being able to access it. And that’s why I wanted to have this yarn today-
Peter:
I’ll tell you a story. I’ll tell you a story about an ad, I won’t mention their name. There was a young first Nations girl that worked at a well-known ad agency that the senior leadership creative team wanted to win a diversity award. And they put this girl through absolute hell.
Now, I was brought in to actually try and work with that. And halfway through the conversation I turned and said to one of the creatives, first and foremost, I didn’t even understand why the creatives weren’t sacked on the spot. That’s another story.
Why are awards so special? Why are they held in such? And the answer was because they’re our KPIs. That’s one of our KPIs, winning awards.
That is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard because it’s so subjective. So, why wasn’t inclusion a KPI? Why wasn’t acceptance A KPI? Why wasn’t diversity of thought a KPI? Why wasn’t outstanding and different output of KPI, no awards was a KPI. So, guess who judges awards? Advertising people for God’s sakes.
Darren:
More of the same.
Peter:
More of the same.
Darren:
I actually saw that during my advertising career, I got the opportunity to go and judge awards in Asia, in Taiwan for all of Asia. No English speaking-
Peter:
Fantastic.
Darren:
And I was sent because the executive creative director didn’t want to go, couldn’t see how it would be even remotely relevant. I have to tell you, it was some of the freshest, most interesting creative because it couldn’t rely on language because it would often be across multiple dialects or whatever.
And so, it was very visual. It just blew me away the quality of the work. I came back and I talked to — because at the time I was president of the Melbourne Advertising Design Club, and I said, “Why aren’t we seeing this sort of work here?”
And they said, oh … poo-pooed it because it doesn’t fit a particular look. You need to have an open mind or be of the culture to actually understand why-
Peter:
And be challenged and have your beliefs challenged. Some of the best work that I have ever seen have come out of the slums of Kolkata, come out of India, come out of the slums of the Philippines, comes out of slums of Brazil, comes out of the slums of Indonesia.
Some of the most outstanding work I’ve ever seen have come from areas of low socio. Why? Because art and creativity is the way out of poverty. We don’t have that here. We don’t have-
Darren:
We’re all very comfortable.
Peter:
Wow. Comfortable or apathetic. I would prefer to use the word apathetic.
Darren:
Well, we’re apathetic in our comfort because we don’t have to.
Peter:
Because the brands aren’t challenged them. And I know we’ve got to wrap up, but I’m going to tell you a quick little story. So, I’m a big fan of mandatory minimums. And what mandatory minimums are is if the government, federal and state governments are awarding a contract, say it’s a big bridge, 7% of that value of that contract has to go on in First Nations businesses.
Could be a caterer, could be security, could be a painter, whatever it is. Guess which industry doesn’t have mandatory minimums?
Darren:
Advertising.
Peter:
Advertising. Why? Because they lobbied hard, and I use the word — I’m not going to mention any names. They lobbied incredibly hard. Two, the procurement people in Canberra to demonstrate in their crazy way that there’s no First Nations agencies out there that have capacity to run government campaigns. Absurd.
Darren:
Protecting the status quo.
Peter:
Protecting the status quo. Yeah. So, this is the frustrating thing for me. When the Voice was going on, I was watching all this happening, knowing that in the advertising and media industry and comms industry, there’s no accountability for brands not to work with First Nations people.
Darren:
Yet, the whole thing was about-
Peter:
The whole thing was about the Voice. Yet these very ad agencies are making millions off the back of the Voice. The hypocrisy of it all, buddy.
Darren:
Because I have a fundamental belief. People do not do things because it’s the right thing to do. They do things because it’s the right thing for them to do. And I think that’s one of the things that we’ve seen here, is that in the way we’ve seen a lot of the conversation about First Nation people in Australia framed, it’s about doing the right thing rather than doing the right thing for everyone.
Peter:
Well, what is doing the right thing? Again, it’s not about helping First Nations, it’s about-
Darren:
In the patronizing way.
Peter:
Yeah. That’s not the right thing. It’s about educating the Bazzas and Shazzas of the world to say, we believe in this, and we want to show you how beautiful this art can be. How beautiful this way of thinking can be. What talented group of people these people are.
Everyone knows Yothu Yindi, everyone talks about the song Treaty. What people don’t know is Paul Kelly and Peter Garrett were the ones that got together and I just forget the guy’s name. I should remember the lead singer, Yothu Yindi. It was a combination of those three coming together, is what I’m trying to say.
Darren:
To write that song.
Peter:
To write that song and develop that song. And Paul Kelly said, “We are going to make this song together.” So, that was a combination of three brilliant people coming together.
Darren:
Because Treaty is at the very heart of the Uluru statement of the heart.
Peter:
It is. Which I’m a big fan of the Uluru statement of the heart. Big, big fan. Can pretty much recite it back-to-back. I think it’s a wonderful document.
But again, drill down, how do we measure KPIs against that? How do we say this is working? How do you go to your boss in six months and say, “Look, here’s the statement from the heart and here’s the outcomes and we can measure this, and we’ve made this much money out.” It’s the only language that people understand. And there’s ways to do it.
Darren:
Well, and we’ve seen it. It’s taking a long time. But the UN development goals, sustainable development goals was something from 2015, which is trickling through globally across all 17 of those. There are ways of doing it. Correct. It takes, as you say, a measure and a sales pitch.
Peter:
And a good leader.
Darren:
To make people to do it.
Peter:
And a good leader. Poor old James Greet, he’s been talking about this for quite a while. Greet is a lovely bloke. Absolutely lovely bloke. And he’s, same thing. He’s like, “Until we start putting KPIs and measuring tools against this, implement it. Put ways of measuring the success. Follow it through.”
Understand that it’s a hard journey. Understand that it’s going to be challenging. Because being made to feel uncomfortable is not pretty, but it’s not about you. It’s not about you being uncomfortable. It’s about the journey and it’s about us all coming together. That’s it.
Darren:
Well, Peter Kirk, we’ve run out time. It’s great yarn and thank you for taking the time.
Peter:
I can’t believe how well-behaved my dog was. Look, she’s full on asleep.
Darren:
Slept all the way through it.
Peter:
Ruby, come on. That’s very passionate.
Darren:
Heard a bit of snoring in the background. But that’s okay.
Peter:
Anyway, no good yarn. Thank you so much.
