Without the looming economic challenges, marketers have already been facing major issues on the media front. Media measurement, ad fraud, brand safety, transparency, performance metrics, media GHG emissions and more. Fiona Johnston, Chief Client Officer and the Chief Executive Officer, Danny Bass, have reunited at dentsu’s media portfolio and discussed why this is the right time to address these issues for clients and the unique advantages dentsu brings to these challenges.
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And in an industry that’s churning at a rate that none of us wanted to churn at, will the people in the room be there in 12 months’ time?
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Today, I’m chatting with two colleagues, both highly regarded and very experienced media professionals who have been reunited for the third time in their careers.
There is no doubt that without the looming economic challenges, marketers have already been facing major issues on the media front; media measurement, ad fraud, brand safety, transparency, performance metrics, and media greenhouse gas emissions and more.
So, why is it the right time to, as many are saying, get the executive team back together to address these issues for clients? And what unique advantages does Dentsu bring to these challenges?
To discuss this, please welcome to Managing Marketing, the new Chief Client Officer for Dentsu Media Portfolio, Fiona Johnston, and the Chief Executive Officer, Danny Bass. Welcome back to Australia, Fiona.
Fiona:
Thank you Darren. Nice to see you.
Darren:
And good to see you again, Danny.
Danny:
You too, Darren.
Darren:
Look, first of all, you departed the shores to go to Europe to head up business development, new business with IPG. So, it must have been a fairly unique or interesting opportunity to drag you back to Sydney town. Apart from the weather here is so much better, but what was it that got you thinking about taking on this challenge or this role? I should say role, because I’m assuming it’s a challenge.
Fiona:
Well, all things are often challenges, I find. I think the opportunity of this role and of course, with Danny again, but also in Dentsu is quite unique. The one thing that a few months in various markets all over the world has given me is a really good perspective on what’s around and what’s out there. And I’ve looked at lots of different roles.
CEO roles, client roles, completely different roles — client-side roles, all sorts of things, and it’s been really fascinating. And I think it’s really reinforced for me, the one thing I love being a part of is some entity that is doing something different or better. And I think that it’s fair to say there have been challenges in every business of our kind over the last few years, but I really think that the space that Dentsu is in right now, is quite special.
In so far as the opportunity with the people that are here and the journey that they’ve been on, which has not been easy at times to take it into quite a unique brand-new space for clients.
And being a Chief Client Officer versus a CEO is really exciting because clients is where I’ve always been focused. And obviously, with people and culture is a key part of that because if the people aren’t happy, then the client’s unhappy and vice versa.
But just really getting into the bones of what solutions are like for clients now because they’ve never been simple, they’re not simple now. But all the issues that you raise, which I still think are issues in places are even bigger now for clients, given the last couple of years that we’ve had.
So, the challenge is as big as the reward, I guess, in so far as it’s exciting, it’s different, it’s interesting. And what I’ve seen because I’ve done a lot of diligence as you can imagine on the role and the business, is that there’s something very special here with a bunch of very special people.
Darren:
Well, you used the word “bigger.” I’m wondering if it’s not that they’ve just become far more complex. I mean, there seems to be more and more challenges around media than ever before. One of the ones I mentioned is media’s contribution to greenhouse gas emissions, which in Europe, where you’ve been, would’ve been much more developed than here in Australia and Asia.
Do you find that clients are really struggling with all these almost layers of issues and complexity? Or are they trying to simplify it and get on with the job?
Fiona:
I think that probably, well, speaking to generally what clients are thinking, I think a bit of both. I think that a lot of businesses — and Danny will talk more about ESG specifically, but a lot of businesses are trying to do the right thing as much as I can tell, and most people I talk to are trying to do the right thing. It’s just what is that thing?
And ESG is often more than just the things that have to sit within policy. They’re absolutely about responsibility, but then that also talks to social demographics that are going on around the business and around the world that are changing rapidly.
So, I think that they’re trying to have an impact in everything. Simplifying it at times is just not that easy because what I do think is different to the problems last time, as in they’re not just bigger or complex, but they weren’t as social-driven as they are now.
Because everything that’s been going on within and outside of COVID; social commentary or lack of or whatever area you sit within — that means that clients have to consider that for their brands and their purpose, but also their own workforce.
So, I think the problems are more complex but, in a way, they’re not bigger, they’re different. They’re not just about business as usual, big problems. They’re also society problems that always should be part of our minds because we’re corporate citizens.
But I think that they find that/we all find that very difficult because they’re trying to balance that social need and also, belief. Most CMOs I know are very good people and very smart people, but also, with more and more pressure from the board.
Darren:
And a huge amount of empathy usually. CMOs, marketing people seem to be generally very people-focused, so they pick up on those things.
Danny, this is really part of a building transformation evolution for the media portfolio at Dentsu. But overall, for Dentsu generally, this is something that Angela started two years ago, and you’ve taken this on in the last 12 months, haven’t you?
Danny:
Well, I’ve been here three and a half months.
Darren:
Oh, is that … it seems like 12 months ago.
Danny:
It feels like 12 months.
Look, to sort of echo Fiona’s comments, the thing that attracted me to join the organization was the work that’s been done internally here over the past three years. Some really tough decisions have been made. Things that aren’t easy when you are closing brands down — we’re bigger than we’ve ever been before, but we’ve got less brands than we have simplifying the message, bringing in lots of new people.
That’s not easy, that’s tough. And the work that Angy and the executive team did over that time has created the opportunity that Fiona and myself have now.
I think the introduction of a number of executives into Dentsu particularly, and those were the people I spoke to in the journey on the way into the business from definitely not media backgrounds — from consultancy, from client, from tech; really interested me in terms of, okay, well, where is this business heading in the next 3, 4, 5 years? And what is it that we can do to solve those problems you’ve just been talking about?
But fundamentally, at our heart, we are still a media agency, and we can never forget that. We’re given, as custodians of client spend, the thing that’s probably the second biggest thing on a client P&L as I’ve said before, and most CMOs would say, they are re-interviewed for their job every 3, 6, 9, 12 months to demonstrate to the board or to the person who signs the checks where that money has gone.
And we take that responsibility very, very seriously. Most pitches still talk about media in the same way, has done for the past 3, 4, 5 years of pitching. So, we don’t want to change too quickly, but we want to be aware of where problems might be within clients and how we can help them over the next 3, 4, 5 years.
Darren:
So, does that process infer that in many ways … well, not a greenfield, because you have existing clients that have been with Dentsu for years and before that, Carat, Aegis, whatever.
But there’s more opportunity because there is less sort of legacy structure that two to three years really was an opportunity to clear out the things that weren’t working so that there’s now, for you guys as leaders of the media portfolio, to start creating something that’s new and better suited.
Danny:
Obviously, we’re biased, but I think we are at an advantage with that. If you think about the maturity within most marketing teams over the past five years, particularly around digital, so you would know this as well as anyone, 10 years ago, all the digital knowledge was within the agency, and the client was looking at the agency to work with them on that digital journey.
That’s very different now. You’ll have people within clients who are as digitally sophisticated, knowledgeable people within our own agency. So, what is it that they’re now looking for us to help them with? And we have clients whose marketing team might be four people, and we have clients whose marketing team’s over a hundred.
So, each of those clients have very, very different needs from us. But the one thing that I look at with this group is the work that’s been done in businesses like Merkel, how close we are to our creative partners and the work that Kirsty has done, really puts us an advantage for the next few years.
Because when I spend time with Merkel and look at the problems that they’re solving, and how easy it will be for us to work with them to … still with pride or to partner with the experts they have, and we’re on level two today, they’re on level three. No one else has that.
We’ve seen agencies having to partner with consultancies, we don’t have that necessity. We have that knowledge within our own organization. And to see the level of business transformation project they’re doing day in, day out, with enormous businesses, with access not just to the CMO, but the CTO, the COO, the CFO, and the CEO has to give us encouragement for where the business is heading.
Darren:
Because Merkel and Solutions in Australia is sort of, from my perspective, a bit of a secret, it’s the secret gem. And Fiona, you would’ve noticed this particularly in the UK and Europe; Merkel has a very high profile, particularly amongst clients. Because it really does represent state of the art in data analytics and insights.
Was that part of the attraction of … well, you came into the role as Chief Client Officer, to know that you’re part of that broader mix?
Fiona:
Yes, absolutely. And like Danny, I met people along the way and was super impressed by those people. Not only their brains, but also, their belief set and their intention. And if we, and I am going to provide compelling, sustainable solutions for clients, you need to know that you have access to lots of different things to be able to do that in an appropriate way.
Rather than trying to badge things on or bandaid — everyone can see through that and it’s super awkward and boring to do. So, yeah, absolutely. Having the scale and depth as a capability was definitely one of the big attractions.
And they’re a great bunch of people, and like Danny says, they’re just up upstairs or downstairs. It’s much easier in trying to get alignment across networks to do things.
Darren:
Just being physically located in the same area. Though there’s going to be a challenge, isn’t there, for both of you in educating your clients and the market about what that offering is, because we’ve seen a lot of the different holding companies and agencies talk about this growing role of data analytics and insights as a way of informing media choices and that type of thing.
But rarely, does it actually hit the road and come together as a cohesive and benefit to clients. I’d like to name some of the big veins, but I won’t because they’ll be very upset.
Danny:
I mean, the first thing for us is talking to our existing client base. We are an industry that’s obsessed with growth. And the scoreboard of what have you won this year is still a thing that we’re all obsessed and preoccupied with.
But we should never forget we have an existing set of wonderful clients, and we want to make sure we’re doing the media side really well before we start talking about business transformation, digital transformation or anything like that. The role of a client lead if you think about that 10 years ago from what it is today, that’s very different.
They need to be an expert across probably six or seven different disciplines. And if we’ve been bringing in other areas of our business around digital transformation, CX, customer experience, the whole thing.
So, first and foremost, are we doing the right thing by our clients from a media perspective? And at what point is it right to introduce other areas of our business to help them on that transformation?
Darren:
And this is really where the idea of a consulting model comes in. It’s not really changing the business to consulting, it’s about empowering the right people within the organization to actually take on more of consulting roles.
Danny:
But you look at the type of people, the consultancy is higher. It is night and day between media and consultancy. And we should never try and follow that model exactly as they do it because there’s something wonderful about this industry. There’s something unique about it.
The way we help change business, the way we … we’re still, I believe, on the last meritocracies that people can come from any background regardless of socioeconomic background, whether you’ve got a degree or not. And we can provide and create a wonderful career for people. And I think as an industry, we forgot that a little bit.
So, we should always apply absolute discipline to everything that we do. And to have a business-like Merkel within our organization and also, Dentsu Creative, and you look at the, the talent that Kirsty’s brought on board over the past 12 months, and then form our own story. And Fiona will play a big role in that as we sit down and work at what the media offering for this business will be in ‘23 and beyond.
Darren:
Yeah. So, Fiona, what do you see as your role as Chief Client Officer initially, because it’s early — I know it’s early days, because there are agencies that have like head of account management or client services-
Fiona:
Which I never used to agree with, whether it’s a role or a title.
Darren:
And Client Service Director, which always felt like this is the person that got to the top of the account management team, and they needed to find one more step. But what do you see as … or perhaps a better ways, what’s the scorecard of success for you in 6 or 12 months’ time?
Fiona:
Very early days, I would say a general scorecard of success would be seeing and feeling of pride in our people around the solutions they’re providing for clients. And sometimes, that solution is no or how, rather than new things or new stuff, whatever it might be. To see them very proud and very curious of that solution, which they are.
I think quite often to the conversation around consulting, we get a bit shiny thing over here, or let’s be called this over here. In actual fact, most people I’ve come across in our industry are pretty intelligent and they know what to do and how to do it. So, they have the capacity, the capability, or the confidence to do that. And it’s our job as leadership team to help them do that.
So, I think seeing people spark with and off client problems which you can see, feel, hear, definitely is part of the job, is a key success factor. And then clients are obviously right next to that. Before or after, I think probably at the same time, there’s no point just setting down a client mantra and telling people to go and do that.
This is more I think about being curious around why our people are here and what they’re doing for clients and what fires them off about client solutions first. And in the parallel timeline, talking to clients about what they really need and what they don’t need, which I’ve always done anyway.
And most people that work with me know that I’ve always stayed close to clients. So, I’m fascinated by what goes on for them from a business perspective and an emotional perspective. They are whole people and they’re very smart people and sort of the great mediators of our time between what’s going on now with budgets and culture and everything.
So, obviously, not only the retention of those clients, but those clients actively choosing to be where they are at Dentsu and other clients who suit our values and we suit their values. I don’t think it’s just pitching on everything, but I’ve never believed in pitching on everything anyway, as you know.
It’s about pitching for the right thing and at times, when a pitch isn’t necessary, finding an alignment that we can have that works well to show the best of us and bring out the best in them. So, I mean, culture and commerce, if you wanted to simplify it down. “Growth is a massively overused word. “Biz dev” is a very simple way of looking at it, but actually, identifying what makes us different if not better.
Darren:
Yeah, it’s interesting because when you get the fundamentals right, when you get the people and the offering, you find that growth — that doesn’t just happen, but more opportunities present themselves, don’t they?
Fiona:
Absolutely. And yeah, I still think as an industry, sometimes we struggle with either being proud or focused enough to make sure the basics as we call it, are right. Because those basics are also fundamentals.
Are people happy in their role? Are they doing the role they think they’re doing? You know, what’s going on for clients outside the budget and the media, which has to be the machinery that’s perfect. But I still think at times, we forget that in anticipation or chase of something that we think is bigger or shinier over here.
So, I think as Danny’s saying, being core to what we are and being in off media, however we define that media with those clients. And our teams constructing around those solutions is exciting. That’s why I’m going to do what I’m doing. And success will be measured by that, I imagine. Lest Danny tells me it’s something else, which could also be true in a number of months.
Darren:
A totally different score card.
Fiona:
It could be.
Danny:
Yeah, I think I’d only been back in the role for a couple of weeks and the MFA EX event at Randwick — if you were a stranger to the industry and you observed that day, you would see the very best of the industry.
I think 1500, 2000 young people, brilliant presentations from different agencies around the market, A real energy and a vibrance. And I think sometimes as an industry, we’ve forgot about that, and I’m very passionate about making sure that for the next generation of Australians, they can see media as a real career path for them. And that’s what we want to achieve here as well.
Darren:
And there is, and you’ve both mentioned that there’s huge talent intelligence enthusiasm that’s still attracted in being part of an agency. But I’ve got the sense that both of you are talking about getting the fundamentals right for media, really getting the game stitched up.
But in some ways, is your interpretation of a consulting model, for instance, in media, the ability to actually solve other problems for clients without it necessarily being a media solution. And the reason I say it is we have this joke that you’ll never meet a social media strategist who’s not recommending social media.
You’ll never meet a media channel planner who’s not recommending a media channel — that everyone’s selling something. And yet, we’ve got to remember, and I think we often forget because everyone gets caught in their wheel rut that just because you have a particular solution on offer, that may not be the right one for a client.
And that’s all they want, they just want their problem solved. But they also want to know that when they give you a media job to do, you’ll do it really effing well.
Danny:
Yeah. And again, you would know better than both of us; most media pitches are still looking to solve media problems. The brief that we would get would be how could we solve this particular problem? It’s not around business transformation, digital transformation, or anything else.
So, I think there’s two things at play here is, when we pitch, what are we pitching as? What do we want to be known for? And when we leave that room, does the client look and go, wow, that’s something we’ve not seen before?
Now, that might mean we’re first or last when we leave, but I don’t want us to be in that sort of gray area. I want us to be very specific in terms of what we are, what we offer, what’s our unique proposition, what our people stand for, what our culture stands for and everything else.
The beauty is once you’ve got into the client, once you’ve got their trust, and then we can introduce other layers of what we want to do and how we can help them. But I think for the next — well, for the foreseeable future, to win a piece of business will be on media principles and whether or not they can see us being the partner they want for the next three or four years.
Darren:
And to use a sporting metaphor; if you’re going to play grand slam tennis, you’ve got to know how to play tennis. But then to be a great coach, you need a totally different set of skill sets.
Fiona:
Which is why I’m saying part of that sort of curiosity of clients at the beginning is also knowing when to say no.
We should be first and foremost authentic in what we do and how we do it. So, sometimes if the solution isn’t what the client may think, then we need to work through that with them as well, and in absence of what we might think we want it to be.
Which we’ve done before, we’ve both done before. Sometimes, it’s painful, but you have to do that. And I think the other thing that we’d want them leaving that pitch room is going, “Those are people I trust and I like,” because I think that-
Darren:
And that’s the biggest thing.
Fiona:
… part what we do is … but real trust and like. Not like they’re a cool cat, I’m going to hang out with them in the pub, that might be true as well. But just actually someone who I know is passionate about my business, has a point of view, and when stuff hits the fan, if it does, I know they’re going to help me out.
And I think we’ve both, I’d like to say, got a good reputation within our client base in the past of going a client knows they can pick up the phone and we’ll solve things.
Darren:
And also deepening that into the rest of it.
Danny:
And in an industry that’s churning at a rate that none of us wanted to churn at, will the people in the room be there in 12 months’ time?
And then that starts the conversation around culture. What is it that you are offering people to stay in the organization, which goes back to that career path that when we’re bringing people in, they can see how we’re going to better their career, whether it be to remain in Australia for the next 10 years, or is there a path to New York, London, Singapore, Shanghai, whatever it may be. That’s so important.
Darren:
But going back to your point about media pitches seem to only focus on can you plan and buy media; that’s because that’s the table stake.
Danny:
Yep.
Darren:
This is the exercise that you put through as an agency while a client assesses you for do I trust them? Do I think they have capabilities beyond — because in some ways, if you’re in the room and can’t do that bit or don’t appear to be able to communicate that with any confidence, then what am I doing talking to you?
And then really, the decisions are made at a much higher level of need and a more visceral sense of evaluation. It always amazes me talking to procurement people who make these beautiful scorecards around have proven their capabilities to plan media, tick. Well, it’s really not the reason that people are selecting an agency or a partnership.
Danny:
Well, at best, you might have, what, two 90-minute sessions and the submission, and that’s it.
Darren:
And your point about being there for the long term, I have to say this is what we’ve seen during COVID, is this move towards the indies because the owner will be there from day one, and is likely to be there. The multinational agencies are the ones that need to work harder on that.
Danny:
When I speak to colleagues in other markets and talk about the rise of the Indies in Australia, we have a very, very strong indie industry here. And more power to them because everyone has to lift the game. We’re a better industry if we’ve got more better players than weak players.
But I think what we’ve got to make sure we always bring is the benefit of being part of an organization like Dentsu. The fact that they spent what they spent to buy Merkel. An Indie could never do that. But we’ve got to articulate what difference that will make to a client that comes on board, the training.
What we can tap into in other markets, those are the things we have to demonstrate as well as how we will compete with an Indie as well.
Darren:
And the investment in technology. Because that’s the other thing, is media has become so tech driven. I remember watching as resources for digital planning and buying went up. The effective commission (as some people used to call it) was up around 20 or even 30% because everything was so manual.
Increasingly, it’s all automated. You’ve got artificial intelligence informing a lot of it, reports are becoming almost autogenerated. And so, while the resourcing levels have dropped, there is now a greater need for better thinking. The people that are now running those machines-
Danny:
As I understand it, we are top three client in this country for both Adobe and Salesforce. That has to mean something. The institutional knowledge we have about two platforms-
Darren:
Not just to spend lots of money with them.
Danny:
No, no, no. So, that’s within Dentsu group here.
Darren:
Yeah.
Danny:
So, both those platforms are heavily used by a large portion of clients in these businesses in this country. We’ve got to find a better way of articulating that as to how we can help them on that journey.
As we know, MarTech was seen as the savior for everything. A lot of clients who spent a lot of money investing into that side of their business, how do we help them with that?
Darren:
So, let’s just touch on some of those challenges that are going around at the moment. I’d love to get the perspective that Dentsu media portfolio could bring, and you guys personally as the leaders of that.
So, the first one is this whole lots of discussion around media measurement. Is it attention? Is there some need for engagement or are the old measures are still suitable? What’s your attitude towards the media measurement discussion?
Danny:
I mean, well, I can talk to what I’ve seen in the last three months, and the traditional way of measuring is still prominent for most clients. We’re still looked at from a CPM perspective and reach curves within TV buying and similar metrics of CPA within digital.
Undoubtedly, people are talking to us now about attention metrics, but there’s not the enormous change in terms of what we’re held to account on just yet. But if we look at what we’re being asked to do moving forward, there is certainly a swing.
Darren:
And this is where you need to constantly be thinking forward, don’t you? Of what the impact will be.
Danny:
And that diversity of thought and bringing new people into the business that can have that conversation, that understand where those metrics are heading is absolutely critical to us because we the position of trusted partner is thrown around a lot, but what does that really mean?
And for me, it’s when the marketer, has someone in his or her team, has that question, we have to be the first people they call. When that white paper has to be written, and there’s that presentation, when there’s a meeting with the board, we want Dentsu to be first called. And in order to do that, we have to have people who have that view on where the industry is heading.
Darren:
Okay. So, what about from the industry point of view of ad fraud? Because I know invalid traffic and it comes under a lot of other terms, but there seems to be … while parts of the industry will say it’s all under control and I’ve read reports where it’s less than 2%, there’s other people like Augustine Fou out of the U.S,, who says there are some clients more than 50% of their programmatic spend is actually not actually being seen by a human being.
Do you think the industry needs to do more around this? Or do you think it’s something that’s relatively under control?
Danny:
Look, I probably can’t talk for the industry, but I do think if you look at what each of us, each of the holding groups have done over the past few years, it’s been right at the top of priorities to get this right.
As I was saying earlier, more and more clients now have digital expertise within their organizations. So, the level of conversation has risen dramatically. From a Dentsu perspective, we choose our partners very, very carefully. We are held to a high level of account with every client.
In my first three months of meeting everyone, that’s been a topic of conversation and we go through in forensic detail who we work with, why we work with them, and the results that we drive for our clients. It is a very, very messy ecosystem. There’s no question about that.
And we try and be the guardians of that. And you look at some of the largest tech companies in the world and the billions they have and the resource that they have at their disposal, and they can’t solve it all.
So, now, we have a better local supply of inventory. Maybe four or five years ago, we were heavily reliant on the global exchanges. We’ve got a healthy supply of local inventory now. We can work with local media owners much more close than we ever could with exchanges.
So, look, it’s a watching brief. For every person globally who’s trying to stop this, there’s probably 10 trying to create ways of fraud, bots, and everything else.
Darren:
An infinite number of bad actors that are looking for every opportunity.
Danny:
And they’ll continually try and do that. But to the point around the benefit of working for a global organization; when you spend the hundreds of billions of dollars we do globally, that gives you a much better seat at the table. And it gives you much more authority and control in terms of inventory and where we get it from.
Darren:
I just want to pick up on something you just said about when you joined Dentsu and the people you were talking to. Do you think part of that is the Japanese culture or the Asian culture of Facebook, particularly in Japan, where you never want to be in a situation with a client where you have a loss of face.
You always want to be the person that is their trusted advisor that they can a hundred percent rely on. Because I know it’s such a big thing, and it was quite a few years back.
But when the chairman of Dentsu had to apologize to the chairman of Toyota Motor Corporation for some transparency issues, and these are people that went to school together, they’d known each other for a lifetime.
It was such a loss of face, but the changes that occurred throughout Dentsu Japan was because no one ever wants that to happen again. Has that been something you are aware of?
Danny:
It’s not been something I’m aware of. But we are ever more getting closer to our Japanese heritage and embracing that, and maybe that’s a result of it unknown. But no, I think whether we are part of a Dentsu or not, I think that’s a basic prerequisite we have to offer every client.
Darren:
It could easily become lip service. It could, I’m not saying it is. Because the easiest thing in a pitch is to say, “Yes, we have this covered, we are a hundred percent transparent within reason.”
Fiona:
Yeah, you have to prove it.
Darren:
We’re absolutely on top of that fraud within reason, we we’re doing everything possible to make sure that we got a hundred percent attribution on media spend within reason. That there are a lot of things said that border on lip service.
Fiona:
I think you’ve got to have an intelligent conversation about reality. I think from my experience briefly, I think there’s a very, very deep culture of respect and value within the Dentsu business. Whether that’s the Japanese heritage and I’m not going to comment on other countries, that I don’t know that well.
But I get a very strong sense of purpose and respect within the Dentsu business, which I think is great. And this way of being has just become more dynamic and faster anyway as it continues to evolve.
And so, I think whilst we’re consulting or advising clients on what they do and they don’t do, I think anyone that tries to rush ahead of it and says we’re a hundred percent perfect is probably not across enough to know that or that it could not be true.
But then in parallel, to be very honest and upfront about things like risk registers and risk appetites, and making sure that the CMO has all the equipment they need to go into a board meeting fully armed, whatever that might look like, because in the fight to get ahead of it and control as much as possible of it, there also has to be this sort of reality allowance, but knowing what that looks like.
So, to your point, not going, “Oh, we think it’s okay or not,” what is the risk appetite in this space? How much can we agree we can’t control together. And within that area of control or lack of-
Darren:
That’s a great way to look at it.
Fiona:
Well, what do we do? I mean, yeah, so-
Darren:
It’s then making informed decisions. Let’s talk about well, what are the risks? What are the downsides? What are the upsides?
Danny:
Yeah. If a client comes to us and says, “We’re launching this new product and we want achieve a CPA of X,” then it’s, it’s on us to say, “Well, the only way you could potentially get to that is to go into environments which we don’t believe are safe.” So, what is your risk tolerance on that?
Fiona:
Yeah, exactly.
Darren:
And there’re number of clients that have signed nondisclosed programmatic deals with their agency, why? Because they were told you’ll get a cheaper inventory if it’s nondisclosed as opposed to fully disclose.
Now, have they made an informed decision? Maybe, maybe not. They’ve certainly made a decision that they may not necessarily be completely aware of what the downsides are.
Danny:
A number of years ago, there was a fear through the industry about in-housing.
Darren:
Yeah.
Danny:
And what we found is the clients that have in-house, we’re still talking to them about digital in the same volume we always have, but maybe in a different way now.
Darren:
So, overseas — not so much in Australia, but overseas, we’re doing a lot more extended workbench they call it, which is where the agency are actually putting their team in-house. So, rather than building their own team in-house, the agency has their traditional team, and they bring people to put them into the client’s organization, and even more importantly, can rotate them through.
Fiona:
We used to do that in London in Havas, back in the day.
Danny:
But I suppose it also goes to the employee proposition. We are in a candidate short market. There’s no question about that. And those candidates who would want to look at Dentsu and other holding groups as an employer, now look at the Indies, but also look at consultants, look at big tech.
Maybe not as much as big tech as they once did. So, what is it that they want from us, and is it so common into a client? One of the things that we’re really trying to champion within Dentsu is coming to the organization and spend a year working in every different area.
And then after that year, where do your strengths actually lie? Where are you most drawn to? And if you’ve got three months within media and all these different disciplines, maybe a stint in creative, a stint in Merkel, then what we believe is almost like a media MBA at the end of those 12 months.
Then you’re going to be a much better formed media professional. And then we’ll put you in the areas that you want to drive your career forward with.
Fiona:
You can learn so much in this industry, and I think that at times, we forget that. And some of the talent that’s probably come in through COVID period as well have missed out in the community that you can create when you’re all together and whatever about office and work from home kind of stuff.
But generally, it’s not all bad. Sometimes being together in an office, you can have fun, you can have ideas, you can spark and also, you get exposed to lots of different types of people doing different things. And I think that sense of sort of opportunity and discovery is a really beautiful part of our industry.
And sometimes, we forget that. Because all the stuff we’re looking at is pretty heavy right now. It’s still the same challenges, bigger challenges, more complex challenges. Everyone’s doing more within all of that.
There’s also a really lovely lightness and insight to what we do that’s very human as a communications business, as a media business. And I think getting some of that back into how we work within our industry will help with all the talent challenges that we have, but also remembering that it’s not all bad all the time.
Darren:
Yeah. Well, I think we started this conversation Fiona, with you talking about your focus on people and those people being the clients, your team in-house. I think that’s really … we’ve come full circle because in a way, it’s about building/understanding people’s needs and then building the flexibility to be able to actually accommodate whether it’s your clients.
And they certainly have a big-long list of things they want to achieve, but also the talent that you are wanting to attract and keep.
Fiona:
And it’s not easy. We won’t always get it right, but we’ll try very, very hard.
Danny:
Yeah. And both Fiona and I are very passionate about opening up the catchment. There’s a lot of people — if I put my unlimited hat on, there are a large amount of Australian school leavers who have no idea what media is, who genuinely do not know how ads appear in the way that they do.
But they are resilient. They could hustle, they know the value of a dollar, and we’ve got to make sure the people we employ best represent the people who buy our client’s products. And there’s a big opportunity for us here to help solve maybe a societal problem and a business problem at the same time.
But when I hear figures like the 1,600 digital jobs vacant in Australia right now, we ain’t going to solve those by recruiting in the same way we always have. So, it’s much as a challenge as an opportunity to have a workforce that reflects modern Australia.
Darren:
I also like the idea of recruiting out of high school because I think too much emphasis is put on universities having the capabilities and the industry understanding to be able to take someone out of high school and in three years, make them job ready. I still think there’s a huge opportunity here.
Danny:
I’ve spoke to grads who’ve finished media degrees who don’t know what a CPM is.
Darren:
But to the point, I think Danny, you mentioned like an MBA if you work through this. I mean, it’s almost like once you’ve done this and you’ve got to a certain point in your media career or in your advertising career, then’s the time to go and do an MBA, to really give you the commercial context that is often missing in conversations around marketing.
Danny:
Yeah. And with the new working environment, we came through an era where it was five days a week, you had a very sort of-
Darren:
60 hours a week.
Danny:
A rigid career path, but you would be surrounded by people who’d been in the industry for 20, 30, 40 years.
So, if you were in strategy, you’d be sort of figuratively at the knee of someone who’d probably been doing strategy for 20, 30 years. And you would pick that up because you’d hear those conversations day and day. Same with investment, same with everything else.
With a more fluid working environment now, how do we make sure that training and that development continues when you may be in the office two days a week or three days a week, or never?
So, we’re all trying to figure this out, but I am a firm believer in we have to have anchor days in the office, particularly for the younger people to learn the industry.
Darren:
Yeah. That’s why I say to people, it’s not work from home or work in the office, it’s having flexibility that fits in with their needs and expectations.
Danny:
Yeah. And our ecosystem, we have media partnerships. So, how do we continue to meet with the media partners, face-to-face-
Fiona:
It’s a people business.
Danny:
Not just on Teams, and likewise, with other clients as well.
Darren:
Look, the time’s just got away. This has been a great conversation. Thank you, Fiona Johnston.
Fiona:
Thank you, Darren.
Darren:
It’s really great to see you back in Australia.
Fiona:
Likewise, to see you.
Darren:
And thank you, Danny Bass for your time.
Danny:
Thank you.
Darren:
I do have a question for both of you; we’re sitting here, and I know industry awards aren’t everything, but come on, how many years before one of the Dentsu media portfolio is up there as the MFA agency of the year?
