Within a year of taking the CEO role at Spark Foundry, Imogen Hewitt took this media agency to the top of the 2020 new business rankings in Australia after just one year in the CEO role. She has spent the last two decades learning, honing and learning more in full-service media and creative agencies in Australia and South-East Asia. Holding varied positions with roles across media, digital, creative, brand and agency management. This diverse background has fostered the ability to think across disciplines and channels. To bring a hybrid strategic point of view to the tasks and challenges of communications and agency management today.
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Because if we all agreed, we wouldn’t get to an interesting place.
You need the debate. You need a bit of heat in there. Like I said, you need a bit of friction.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, Founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Today, I’m sitting down with someone who took this media agency to the top of Australia’s 2020 new business ranking after just one year in the CEO role.
She spent the last two decades learning, honing and learning some more in full-service media and creative agencies in Australia and Southeast Asia, holding varied positions with roles across media, digital, creative, brand, and agency management.
It’s this diverse background that’s fostered the ability to think across disciplines and channels to bring a hybrid strategic point of view to the tasks and challenges of communication and agency management today.
So, please welcome to Managing Marketing Imogen Hewitt, CEO for Australia and New Zealand at Spark Foundry. Welcome, Imogen.
Imogen:
Hi, Darren.
Darren:
Though, I notice everyone calls you “Imo.”
Imogen:
It’s a thing. I can’t shift it and it’s too late to try now. It’s been the way it’s been for, I don’t know, 15, 20 years.
Darren:
It’s clearly a term of endearment because you get the feeling that it’s shortened with such love and respect.
Imogen:
I like to think so. It comes with warmth.
Darren:
I’m inclined to use people’s proper names, so I’ll continue to call you Imogen.
And look, one of the reasons that I was so keen for us to sit down was that fact about you were promoted or given this role as CEO of Spark Foundry, literally only a year or so after it suddenly sort of sprung into global attention. Because previously, it was Mediavest and Spark, and Publicis in their wisdom, put the two together, didn’t they?
Imogen:
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, I think we tell sometimes a little bit of a history lesson to clients and prospects and staff about the fact that there was an acquisition of Match Media, I think in 2017. And there was a bit of a trial as having that part of the Blue 449 Global Network at the same time as Spark was kind of emerging out of Mediavest.
And then eventually, those two things were brought together, and that was I think the beginning of 2019. And I started at the end, the very end of 2019. So, quite a task.
Darren:
But then you had that phenomenal new business growth. I mean, it literally felt like suddenly, Spark Foundry was getting nominated or being on almost every media pitch that was happening at the time. It must have been a phenomenal start to that role.
Imogen:
It was an awesome start, but the awesome is only in retrospect because, at the time, it was quite daunting to find ourselves trying to work out who are we, who’s our leadership team, what do we believe in, and how well do we know one another and believe in one another, and what’s our offer look like — and all of those kind of classic things that come with bringing together multiple brands into one, at the same time as staring down enormous opportunities like pitching on Westpac, pitching on Toyota. That was all within the first sort of 12 months of our new agency. So, yeah, good, and bad.
Darren:
Well, trial by fire, forged in the heat of new business is one way of looking at it.
Imogen:
It’s really true because I think one of the things that it did do was mean that we couldn’t dilly-dally with sorting some of that stuff out. The fact that there were really significant opportunities on brands that we all wanted to work on meant that we had to really focus on getting some of the fundamentals done quite quickly.
And what I mean by that is within the first 12 weeks of me starting, we had kicked off and were probably already halfway through a refresh of the positioning of the agency that tried it’s very best to take into account what was true of Match and what was true of Spark, and what were both the differences and I suppose, some of the similarities that we really wanted to hang onto and build something which was more than some of its parts.
And we had that concluded within, oh gosh, it was well within the first six months because we had these looming big significant opportunities on the table, and we needed to articulate what we believed in very clearly.
We also, had to go through the process of I guess, working out from a product perspective what … well, I had to go through — I mean, the guys that were here already knew, but I needed to really understand what it was from a product perspective that was special. And there was, luckily, a lot that was really, really compelling in the work that existed within the agency, and the teams had done already.
And then put a bow on it, called it something, packaged it up a bit, and off we went.
Darren:
And I’m glad you said that because it is about packaging. One of the things that drive me crazy is agencies that give you this list of what’s special about them but never get to the point of being able to package it up almost like the story that you want the prospective client to take away, or even your incumbent clients.
Sometimes we forget that the incumbent clients are inclined to know you from day-to-day interactions, but rarely do you get to sit down and give them the story that they can then wrap it up or package it up into one thought or one perception of the agency.
Imogen:
Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? I mean, this might not be overly popular with some people, but I think communications agencies tend to be a little bit shit at communicating.
And so, we don’t do a great job of a lot of the things that we preach to our clients, as in what is our positioning, what does make us different, what product do we have that nobody else has? Why and how can it be called something different and what’s the benefit of that back to our clients?
And so, we did do quite a lot of work very quickly on making sure that that was all really clearly articulated. And I think you said sometimes incumbent clients don’t get the benefit of that, but when you’re in the midst of a merger, you have to articulate that to clients old and new.
And so, the driving force behind that was not simply let’s get some runs on the new business board. It was let’s make sure that our existing clients across what was previously two different agencies with quite different ways of doing things saw it as a benefit and an enhancement rather than potentially, taking away from an agency that they already loved. So, that was part of that agenda as well.
Darren:
And you’re right, Imogen, in that they were agencies that had very strong reputations for doing things their way. So, they would’ve attracted clients that were attracted to that way of doing things. It would’ve been an interesting and quite a nuanced conversation to say “Well, we’re bringing it together, but you’re going to get the best of both worlds” because it’s easy to say, but they’re going to be there going “Yeah, but will I really … let’s wait and see.”
Imogen:
Yeah. And they were two businesses that were really built on really different ways of doing things, really different skills and legacies.
So, on the one hand, we had a business that had been incredibly progressive in terms of data, digital analytics. I have the benefit now of having an analytics team that’s been in the business for over a decade, which is not something that a lot of agencies do have, which is a significant part of what we do really well.
But on the other hand, there was also an agency that was much more known for big culturally important ideas and partnerships, and things that were much more about a great insight and a great idea brought to life.
So, we had sort of this real growth engine, performance engine, very science side of the business and this very much more driven by what does it feel like and how do you get people to connect with ideas and why is that equally important if not more important than anything else.
So, on the one hand, it could have been quite hard to bring those two things together, but it became clear very early that if we could put them together so that both of them could thrive, then you kind of have a pretty incredible combination of assets at your disposal.
Darren:
Amazing offering. It probably didn’t feel so at the time, but in many ways, that sort of diversity of experience, because you’re not the media agency CEO that sort of went into media and has always been in media as the introduction. I pointed out that you’ve had quite diverse; creative, digital data media — all of these things.
Do you think that helped, or can you see how that diversity of view could help pull that together?
Imogen:
I mean, it was my first CEO role. And I certainly, like anyone who has a conscience was worried about whether or not I was ready to take it on. I think there were a couple of things that became clear really quickly, one of which was kind of exacerbated by the fact that I walked in just before, oh gosh, the C word. And by that, I mean COVID, not anything more rude. I just qualified that now-
Darren:
The pandemic, they call it.
Imogen:
The pandemic, that’s what I mean. And so, I kind of look at that in hindsight as a bit of an equalizer because it didn’t really matter how much experience you had as a CEO or otherwise. No one really knew what they were doing, dealing with something of that kind of global magnitude.
And what became clear quite quickly to me was that having 20-odd years of experience as a communication strategist was actually an extremely useful skill set because I thought about my constituents or my target audience as the people that I was trying to work with and for, and what did they need from me?
They needed clarity, they needed consistency, they needed transparency. They needed me to communicate very clearly and often about as much as I knew. And I’m quite comfortable in talking about the fact that I didn’t know the answers to all of the things — no one did, but not everybody is necessarily as comfortable with accepting that as I was then and still am now.
And so, it really was about what do these people need to know and when do they need to know it, with how much specificity, and how much of the bad stuff can I also be very clear about? Because I’ve got a belief that if you don’t tell people the truth, the story they make up is worse anyway, so you may as well.
Darren:
It is so true and you would not believe the number of times I’ve had that conversation with corporate comms at clients; “We’re going into a pitch and we’re not going to tell anyone anything.” And I go, “Well, that’s really dangerous because the industry will just make up the worst possible story to fill that void.”
But you’re right, it occurs everywhere. Whenever people that are seen to be managing or in control or they should know more than I do; when they’re quiet, it just makes everyone else’s thoughts run wild.
Imogen:
It freaks everyone out. And then when you’ve got people who are genuinely quite fearful because we are looking at a situation that nobody knew what was going to happen — and I mean that in a professional sense with respect to their jobs, but also, in a personal sense.
I felt very compelled to tell people as much as I could possibly tell them good, bad, and ugly. And I think it really helped actually to galvanize the team. It built some trust that I would do everything I could, and that where there would be difficult conversations, I wouldn’t shy away from them. And I think that really helped actually to bring the two teams together quite quickly.
But the other part of that was I didn’t know how useful my brand strategy skills would be until I sat down and said, “We’ve got all of these component parts, but we have to build this into a beautiful whole.”
And thankfully, I had done that quite a few times on behalf of clients, and then was able to translate those skills into doing that with the team to kind of build what is Spark Foundry now that we’ve got the opportunity to put our stamp on it.
Darren:
It’s interesting because you are using that word team and people and yet, you said earlier, part of the story is talking about what makes us different. It’s interesting that often, we see media agencies especially, spend a lot of time talking about technology as their differentiator and not as comfortable talking about their people.
And yet, one of the things that we point out to clients in pitches is really focused on the people. Because it doesn’t matter what tech they’ve got, these are the people that are going to be either asking the questions or using the technology to get the answers. The tech itself is not the end, it’s an enabler.
Imogen:
Yeah. I could not agree more.
Darren:
It’s the people that you want … you want that team there with you. Sure, they might have some great tech, but it’s irrelevant if you don’t have great people using it.
Imogen:
I think we spend a lot of time at work, we spend a lot of time with one another. There is a real need to feel that you’ve got the right people around you. And I don’t mean cultural fit, I mean people with the right kind of inquiring minds to ask the kinds of questions that fundamentally make a difference to a client’s business outcome.
It’s funny that you say that about the technology because we often, in pitches and otherwise, talk about the task as being more than mechanical. It’s the human overlay, it’s the experience, it’s the instinct, it’s the desire.
In our business, we talk about retaining a little bit of mongrel that comes from having a very entrepreneurial aspect to at least, one of the businesses that we’ve now kind of forged into spark. And the reason for that is because just a little bit of agitation, a little bit of permission to provocate so that you are asking questions uncomfortable or otherwise, so that you get to the right outcome.
Or even so that you get to the right inputs because sometimes, the inputs aren’t quite right, so therefore, the output is never going to be right. But yeah, we are big believers in there is a real value in creating teams that bring different perspectives together where there can be a little bit of healthy friction.
But if you don’t like the people in the room, then spending 80% of your working hours with them will be a struggle.
Darren:
Well, I think it’s about respect, isn’t it? You’ve got to respect everyone in the team. You don’t necessarily have to love them, but when you deeply respect the team and know that they’re going to be there to do their bit and make the whole team look good, that’s, I imagine, really important.
Imogen:
I think so. I think actually, it’s trust that’s fundamental. So, I did inherit a leadership team. I was very fortunate in that it was comprised of some absolutely genius people, but they had no reason to trust me other than trusting the people that had decided to employ me.
And it was a bit of a journey to get to a point where we all understood one another and really got that, I will do exactly what I say I’m going to do. That’s it. You don’t make promises that you’re not going to keep.
Darren:
Well, that’s integrity, isn’t it? Doing what you say you’re going to do is the ultimate expression of integrity.
Imogen:
Yeah, it is. It’s a piece of common language. In the last few months, we’ve launched a national management team because we are again, really fortunate to have just a real depth of experience within the business. And we have sort of a group of leaders in the business that aren’t necessarily part of our leadership team, but who have 15, 20 years experience doing what they’re doing.
They’re incredible in their own right. And as we have grown quite quickly, we needed to both make sure that those people were furnished with growth opportunities. But equally, it was quite silly if we didn’t say, how do we harness the experience of these people to contribute back to the running of the business as we grow?
Because it’s impossible to maintain control nor would I want to over the everyday delivery of 230 odd people. So, we’ve done that, and we’ve built that. And one of the things that we talk about a lot with them is simply just making sure that you are clear on what you can actually get done, and you don’t make a promise that you can’t keep. And if you can keep that frame of mind, people trust you.
Darren:
Imogen, I’m really getting a sense of that quote that I read. I think it’s on your LinkedIn bio.
It says, “As CEO, I’m responsible for the people, the product positioning, and the commercial success of the agency. If it’s broken, I need to fix it. Most importantly, it’s my responsibility to create a culture where exceptional people thrive. An inverted org chart, an upside-down triangle; I’m not on the top, I’m on the bottom doing my best to hold the extraordinary people who work with me and for me, up and it’s a daily honour.”
Look, I have to tell you, it gave me a visceral emotional response.
Imogen:
A good one, I hope.
Darren:
I teared up in a way because-
Imogen:
That was very good.
Darren:
Because it’s the type of leadership that you wished you were in the presence of, that too often, there’s an interpretation of leadership — the military style of standing there and ordering the people into the breaches.
Whereas, this is much more about the role of the leader is to really help build the foundations for the team to be the best they can be.
Imogen:
And I mean, I live by it. I don’t just put it on my LinkedIn profile, although it sounds good when you read it out in one go. I’m quite proud of that now.
But I like to think of the age of control and command, which is kind of the military version of leadership, being well and truly on its way out, if not completely dead. I’m not sure if it’s in a trench or otherwise, but there you go.
Because of the businesses I grew up in, and to be fair, I grew up in many with excellent leaders who have taught me all sorts of lessons about what proper leadership looks like, much of which is properly serving the people that work for you rather than the other way around.
But again, that’s exactly what we talk about is the age of our employees, our people serving the business is over. It’s the business that is in service of the people. And if we get that right, then we get people who really want to be here, they feel really safe being here. They will try, they will take chances and risks. They know that there’s no punishment for those.
In fact, we encourage it. They can enjoy the experience. We will build career paths for people and tailor things for what makes one person motivated and enthusiastic is not the same as what might make somebody else motivated and enthusiastic.
I think it’s quite hard work, is the honest truth, but the reward outstrips the work by so far because you really do get to watch people deliver more than they thought they were capable of. And I’ll get out of bed for that any day of the week.
Darren:
Well, and that’s ultimately what you’re here for, is delivering those results to your clients. And we are hearing so much around the world from agencies, “Oh, it’s so hard to attract talent, it’s so hard to keep talent.”
You wonder whether they really don’t understand that fundamental shift, that it’s not about the employees working for you, it’s about the company, being in service of them. Because ultimately, that’s where the value is delivered to your clients.
Imogen:
Yeah, I mean, if you have happy people that want to be here that stick around for longer than average, you create an environment in which we can have a more profound impact on client business. That is what we’re here for. But it’s not results drive people’s happiness, it’s happy people drive great results.
Darren:
Exactly, yeah.
Imogen:
So, yeah, I mean, we really do strongly believe in that. We’ve got some statistics, if you’ll excuse me, excuse the plug, but that we are really proud of.
We have increased our staff engagement and happiness rates across both the Sydney and the Melbourne business by 10 basis points. We’re the number one happiest agency in Melbourne according to Media Eye, the number fifth happiest agency in Sydney according to Media Eye.
And the people that are up at that kind of level typically, have fewer people and tend to be independently run agencies. And I’ve worked in all sorts of agencies, and you can have crappy leaders in any kind of size or scale.
But the reality is, if you’ve got a few fewer people to try and get to grips with and build the best possible environment for, it’s a little bit easier than if you’re dealing with lots of people.
Darren:
It comes down to culture, doesn’t it? We use terms like “culture,” but it’s actually creating that culture within the organization where people feel that they belong.
Imogen:
Yeah, it. And you can’t create culture from the top down. You can create some parameters. You can push people in a certain direction, you can put some nice words together. But if those words are a plaque that sits on the wall or a PowerPoint presentation that people get when they start and then they use as a doorstop, that doesn’t work.
Darren:
Okay. I’m going to challenge you there because I’ve been involved in working — when I was working in agencies where a change of senior leadership management fundamentally changed the culture of that office because I think there’s a role the leader plays in actually living an example of the way we do things around here.
Imogen:
I think that’s fair.
Darren:
So, you can’t create it, but you can absolutely be a living expression of the culture.
Imogen:
And as you should be. So, it’s not as simple as the plaque on the wall or the PowerPoint deck. It is the living, breathing, how do we manifest our values? How do we demonstrate behaviour? How do you respond to a difficult situation in a way that gives people an idea of how you would like them to respond in a difficult situations? That’s true.
I think more what I’m saying is you can’t come in, or I chose not to come into this organization and say-
Darren:
With a formula or recipe for culture.
Imogen:
Exactly. “I’m going to decide that this is our positioning in your vision statement. I’m going to decide that these are our values, and then I’m going to tell you all that’s how you have to behave” because that’s rubbish and nonsense.
Darren:
Well, and goes back to the point about command and control. As soon as you try and control it, it will be so elusive it’ll just slip through your fingers.
Imogen:
Indeed. And also, it just doesn’t allow people at every level of an organization to contribute. And I think our industry is full of all age groups, but we tend to still skew younger. And I would hate to think that people with an enormous amount of relevant experience of what’s going on in the world at every level, be they senior and experienced practitioners or brand-new, all of those people have something to contribute.
And I do not know the answers nearly as well as those 200 people on the floor know the answers. So, it would be foolish not to get their opinion on how we should be running the show. And then yeah, embrace it wholeheartedly and work out ways that people can see it expressed in the real world every day.
Darren:
Now, going back to that first year in the role, and you had all these pitches and people were working hard, you were trying to sort of package together and get alignment from the management team and yourself around positioning.
And when did you start to feel that you had something really special here? At some point, you must have realized that things were really coming together. And was it just before or just after the pandemic hit?
Imogen:
It wasn’t just before, because I only had about eight weeks or so in the role. And I knew very quickly that there were some very special people, but not how well we might be able to galvanize them together to deliver something bigger than the individual. It takes a little bit longer than eight weeks to work that out.
I think when we started to have to write things down, again, it was thank you for some big pitches in those moments because that was what actually made us write down what do we stand for and how do we do things? What have we got? What difference is it going to make? It was when we actually had to put pen to paper.
Darren:
Yeah, so it becomes real.
Imogen:
It did become real and it became real very quickly. And the sheer effort and commitment that came out of particularly the leadership team, but not just confined to the leadership team, anyone that was asked to participate; got excited about the way that we were articulating things, and it became this sort of snowball.
So, the enthusiasm became momentum, and we just got better and better at it until we arrived towards the end of 2020, I think, with a set of statements about what we think we do as an agency that was compelling for new business, for existing clients, for our people, for our leadership team, and with a deep, genuine breath of relief for me too. So, somewhere around there, it took about a year.
Darren:
So, and then you’ve got this sense of it’s really galvanized, coalesced from chaos to sort of order in some ways.
Imogen:
It’s still chaotic from time to time, but yes. Happy chaos.
Darren:
But there’s now a sense of happy of who we are. And what do you think are the real skills that you need as a leader to keep moving that along? Because it doesn’t just lock itself in place and nothing happens. It is a constantly evolving mix, isn’t it? You know, people and feelings and emotions and decisions are constantly-
Imogen:
Yeah, a hundred per cent. And I think it’s knowing when to listen and then knowing when to decide. So, a lot of listening is required, but there’s also a need for decisions and being decisive and clear about why the decision’s been made.
We’ve got quite a big leadership team, and their opinions are all incredibly valid, but we can’t rule by like democracy all the time. There is a reason, hopefully, that I have the job that I have, and sometimes you need to make the decision.
And I think it’s about being respectful about why you’ve done that. So, there may well be someone who disagrees. That’s fine. Because if we all agreed, we wouldn’t get to an interesting place. You need the debate. You need a bit of heat in there.
As I said, you need a bit of friction occasionally. But then take the time to say, “This is why we’ve done what we’ve done. And your point about X was incredibly valid, and I won’t forget that you made this incredible point about whatever it was, but for this particular set of circumstances, we’re going to do this.”
But if people feel included and they feel listened to and they feel, as I said earlier, safe to contribute, you’ll get really great stuff out of people. But you do also need to know when to call it.
Darren:
Yeah. I’m glad you said you need the heat, you need the friction because there’s a lot of surveys and things, particularly between clients and their agencies, but also, within agencies. And sometimes I get the feeling that these surveys are trying to make everyone sort of happy and content.
When in actual fact, the best creativity and innovation comes often from irritation, often from some friction. I wonder whether they’re not doing a disservice in everyone trying to fill out the survey to say how happy they are.
Imogen:
It’s interesting. I mean, I think the surveys in and of themselves are valuable because I like to have a temperature check on what’s going on, on the floor of the agencies. I think people sometimes, we need a benchmark. It’s not a bad thing.
I like to think about it more: do people feel supported? Do people feel heard? Do people feel like they can contribute? A great stat in one of the surveys is about how management team managers or balance people and profit. I think those things are really important.
You don’t have to be like is it super nice all the time? Because that’s not going to get you anywhere. But some of the things you can learn from those surveys are really valuable as well. But it’s like parenting. Bear with me through this analogy.
I could tell my children that being happy is the be all and end all, but then they’re doomed to fail because you can’t be happy all the time. It’s about how you deal with the not happy bits, how well you recover from the bits that sucked that really is a bit barometer of how successful and content and all those kinds of things that you’re ultimately going to be.
We spend a fair bit of time talking about recovery. So, there will always be argy-bargy, I don’t want there to be no argy-bargy. But I do want people to understand, and I want people to take the time to check on their colleagues to make sure they’re alright at the end of those kinds of slightly more heated conversations.
Darren:
Do you think that there’s clients that really appreciate that as well? You know, because what I say to clients, the metaphor I use is oysters. You know, if you want pearls, then let a bit of sand get in. So, it irritates and the oyster makes the pearl.
Imogen:
That’s a good one.
Darren:
Because if you’re not irritating the oyster, you’re not going to get pearls. And that’s one of the things I worry that “Oh, our agency, they’re difficult.” “What do you mean?” “They’re always challenging our thinking.” And I go, “Isn’t that what you want?”
I think it requires a maturity for the marketers to actually know how to manage it, and know when that irritation’s too much or too little. But not to expect it not to be there at all. Because otherwise, you might as well have a service provider.
Imogen:
Absolutely. But it is also the same responsibility sits with people, how experienced client leads know when to back off. And again, a lot of that comes down to listening. I think you should agitate. I have in my career possibly agitated in some instances a little too much, and there may be some stories floating around about that. That’s okay.
But you do need to push because we are not in the business of status quo. We’re in a competitive business. We are finding competitive advantage for our clients. We are meant to create growth. We have to make tough decisions about what not to do as much as we make decisions about what to do.
None of that’s comfortable necessarily. But if there’s trust there and you listen and you know when to pull back, if you’re really rubbing someone off completely the wrong way, or you’re just wrong, because sometimes we are, then yeah, you will get to a better place with that friction, that bit of sand, to use your analogy.
Darren:
If only there was more a way of measuring that.
Imogen:
The right kind of friction? Maybe we need to invent it. I’ll go you 50%.
Darren:
Maybe we do.
So, there’s that saying about what sort of team do you want? Do you want the team of champions or the champion team? And while you think about that, I bring that up because often in selecting agencies, clients will get obsessed by individuals and their reputation, and we always need to coach them on, “Well, you’ve got to strike the right balance because do you want the champion team or the team of champions?” What’s your opinion?
Imogen:
The champion team because different aspects of our team are most important for different jobs on different days for different clients. And if it was all about a superhero (gosh, let me think) investment person, of which we do have; but if it was all about that all the time, that is not the answer to every problem that we are going to be confronted with.
And the way that we look at our teams, be it our leadership team or all the way through the organization, is what combination of people creates the right sort of circumstances for this client to thrive, for this client to really grow.
Individually, they’re really good; together, they’re even better. So, that’s kind of the way that we’re looking at it for lots of logical reasons.
Imogen:
But equally, there’s a value within our business, which is all sorts. And it is born to reflect diversity of thinking and diversity of thinkers. We have a full-service agency, media agency still within Spark Foundry and it’s quite unusual actually, I think, in the industry now.
So, we have strategists and planners and performance people, data and analytics, technology investment all within one roof. And the benefit of that is one, is accountability because it all sits with us.
The other is that they sit together, learn from one another, and build on one another’s different ways of thinking to get to a better outcome. So, if we were all about one discipline, maybe you’d want a team of champions, but in this instance, we’re not.
Darren:
Yeah, you’re not. It’s interesting that question because it’s very different for creative agencies. Creative agencies are inclined to go for the team of champions because there is a different perspective about creativity: the executive creative director or the chief creative officer.
And then secondary, is the strategist, and then the head of account service or client services — in that it feels much more personality-driven than media agencies. Media agencies, clients are inclined to look for the champion team, whereas they’ll be attracted creatively to a particular agency by a champion creative.
Imogen:
I think that is a really interesting observation. I haven’t really thought about it like that. And I don’t want to irritate my creative colleagues too much, but I think media agencies are tasked with delivering lots of different things, and by and large, great creative agencies deliver great ideas.
And so, maybe, and exactly the same way as I was saying, I need different skills on different days to answer the task, there is still an enormous amount of sex appeal behind an executive creative director who’s got that charisma and the chops that come with the awards and the experience, and the ability to come up with something which is effectively a magic new solution to an agile problem, which is kind of the definition of creativity.
Darren:
Yeah. Look, it’s just an interesting observation and it’s one that’s played out in the last 18 months in that you may be aware, we introduced a commercial review where we’d say to clients, instead of pitching, if you like the incumbent, we’ll do a commercial review.
It’s like we are managing a complete review of the agency and the way you work with them so that you can reappoint them.
When we talk to clients that are coming to us for a media pitch in one year, last year, we converted 60% of those clients that came from media pitch to do a commercial review. We converted 0% of the clients that came for a creative review.
Imogen:
Oh, that’s really interesting.
Darren:
Now, our hypothesis because we talk to the clients as to we’re trying to convert them to … yeah, but if you really like the incumbent, it was all about the work. Even though we don’t run pitches with speculative creative, they just wanted to get in there and see the creatives and see the work, and that there was something maybe more tangible.
This is the part I haven’t got to; I’ve got the reason why they wouldn’t do a commercial review but not … or that they wouldn’t do, but not why. What was the underlying motivation?
Imogen:
How are you going to find out?
Darren:
I’m not sure because it’s a very hard question to probe your client about, “So, what is it exactly?” They’ve given insights like “Well, it’s good to see the creative as opposed to media.” And look, part of it I think is perhaps the part that we haven’t addressed, but you alluded to, is that media agencies are there solving the problem every day.
Whereas, the creative process is, “Here’s the idea, now, let’s run it out. Here’s the idea, let’s run it out.”
Imogen:
I think also, a lot of the work that media agencies do is slightly less visible.
Darren:
Slightly?
Imogen:
I say slightly because it’s becoming increasingly visible, because what we do have the ability to do is quantify the impact that we have. And I’m yet to meet a marketer or client that doesn’t want us to quantify our impact. Because then, they can take that to a board discussion around why we should be continuing to invest or why we are getting better and better and better about forensically understanding the impact that different channels or formats or whatever it might be, have on the bottom line.
But that visibility, even with that enhanced visibility, is still internal visibility. But if I’m a brand marketer and I’ve got a great big sexy ad on TV and everyone’s seen it and everyone’s talking about it, it’s a very externally visible part of what I do.
So, I can understand being driven to look at what else might be possible there, possibly, because that’s a conversation you’re going to have with your friends, family, mom and dad. My mom stopped asking me what I do years ago because it’s really complicated to explain and she’s just happy that I love it as much as I do.
And that’s that, we don’t have that conversation anymore. I wonder how much of it is to do with that everyone’s got an opinion on the creative work and not everybody can have an opinion on what we do, because it’s extremely complicated in some instances.
Darren:
Well, it was also a problem for a lot of the awards shows that started having both creative and media, and they started giving media awards to creative agencies because the ads look good.
Imogen:
Yeah, because who doesn’t love a sexy idea?
Darren:
Yeah. But unless you’re just judging media strategy and ideas like for like, it’s very hard actually to make that comparison.
Imogen:
And I’ve had the privilege really of judging so many awards. It’s one of the things that I’ve loved, really, really loved about my career is that for whatever reason, I think as a strategist, you get a disproportionate number of opportunities to judge other people’s work.
So, I have done a lot of judging here and globally, and I tend to ask myself and sometimes the rest of my panellists the question as to whether or not the media made any difference to that idea. And if you can’t answer that, you probably shouldn’t be giving it a media award.
Darren:
Good point.
Imogen, this has been a terrific conversation. Unfortunately, we’ve run out of time.
Imogen:
Ooh, that was quick.
Darren:
It went very quickly, but only because you’re such a great conversationalist, and I appreciated having this chat.
Imogen:
Oh, well, thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed it too.
Darren:
I do have a question before you go and that is, that of all of the different roles that you’ve had, which is the one that’s given you the most personal pleasure?
