Damon Stapleton is the Chief Creative Officer of The Monkeys and Accenture Song, New Zealand and author of the blog Damon’s Brain. He is highly credentialled, with two D&AD Black Pencils and seventy Cannes Lion Awards for creativity. He has creatively led agencies such as DDB ANZ, Saatchi & Saatchi Australia and TBWA Hunt Lacaris in South Africa. With such a creative pedigree, he recently shared on LinkedIn and article from his blog titled “WTF is Creativity anyway?” Here, Damon took to the time to discuss this and more, including the role of creative awards and the best way for agencies and marketers to work creatively.
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So, if you’re on stage in improv, you can never not do what the other person’s doing. You have to build on it.
And I often think that’s how you get to great work.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, Founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Today I’m sitting down with someone whose LinkedIn profile shares his one, 2 D&AD Black Pencils and 70 Cannes Lion awards for creativity. Until last year, he was also the Regional Creative Officer for Omnicom’s creative powerhouse, DDB across Australia and New Zealand. And before that, the Executive Creative Director for Saatchi & Saatchi in Australia. And before that, the Group ECD for TBWA Hunt Lascaris in South Africa.
So, for someone who’s so well-credentialed creatively, you can imagine my surprise when I read a post he shared on LinkedIn, that raised the question, “What the fuck is creativity, anyway?”
To answer that question and discuss the issue of creativity and more, please welcome to Managing Marketing, Damon Stapleton, Chief Creative Officer of The Monkeys and Accenture Song, New Zealand, and the author of a fabulous blog, Damon’s Brain. Welcome, Damon.
Damon:
Thank you very much. This was a very nice welcome. Thank you, Darren.
Darren:
Well, look, all I’m doing is repeating the facts, and its impressive credentials. Interesting from my perspective, because D&AD Black Pencils are considered the unicorns of advertising creativity, aren’t they?
Damon:
Yeah, I’ve written about this, but I never ever thought I’d win one. In South Africa, it was sort of seen as impossible to do. So, I feel very lucky to have worked with some incredible creatives to do it twice in my career. And a lot of the kudos has to go to them. And maybe I was just in the right place at the right time. But yeah, it’s pretty special to win those.
Darren:
Well, look, that is the type of humility that you only get from people that are really, really talented. So, look, I have to say that the fact that you’ve been part of that process, even the luck of being in the right place in the right time twice, has to say something about you. Because I think we actually create luck, don’t we?
Damon:
Well, I think what’s interesting about agencies is, I think it’s about creating the right conditions and the really good agencies because it’s quite an interesting question; why are some agencies better than other agencies? They tend to have the same ingredients.
A lot of it is, you create the right environment for creativity to happen. And I think that’s actually almost the most important thing you can do as an ECD, are you create space for those ideas to happen. And no one feels stupid if they say something. And that is almost step one.
Darren:
Yeah. Creating that safe environment, because the creative process is actually quite personal and quite revealing, isn’t it?
Damon:
Yeah. Clients often say, “Don’t take this personally” but it’s quite hard not to take it personally, because you’ve probably worked on it for weeks. And I think understanding that and giving creatives that space, allows them to fail in a more gentle way.
And often, you have to fail to get somewhere new. So, it’s kind of, you can’t have creativity without vulnerability. It’s almost impossible. So, you have to create that space for people to be vulnerable, and that’s where new ideas come from.
Darren:
Yeah. So, in your article, you talk about a marketer asking that question; “What the fuck is creativity, anyway?” And it’s a terrific article.
One of the things I loved about it, was the fact that you used very few examples of advertising to actually demonstrate creativity. You used lots of other sources of creativity. And I think that was so important, because sometimes, I think advertising can become a bit navel-gazing, can’t it, on this topic?
Damon:
Yeah, I did that for a reason. I wanted to show that the principles of creativity or the ideas that are out there, it’s not just about advertising. Creativity is a real thing that can solve problems. I think half the problem with advertising is you only use creativity for half of what it can actually do. I think creativity is a much more powerful force, than we actually allow it to be.
One of the reasons I’ve moved to Accenture Song is because I think creativity can be a much bigger thing than it is in our business.
But to your question about navel-gazing, I think yes, advertising can be very self-congratulatory (might be one word), but also it looks at itself and I think great ideas don’t just reside in advertising. So, what I was trying to say is that creativity is a much bigger space and we kind of put labels on it to make it seem smaller than it actually is.
Darren:
Yeah. Well, because one of the things I always laugh at is when I get the agency tour as a pitch consultant, and they go, “This is the creative department.” And I said, “So, that means all these other people aren’t, seriously?” Because some of the best strategists I’ve worked with are creatives. Some of the best account people are creative.
Damon:
Best agencies in the world are all — every department cares about the work. And I think Steve Jobs had a great quote, which is, “You can teach people anything, except to care.” And the really great agencies, everybody cares. And if you have that, you’ll do great work.
Darren:
Yeah. So, one of the great creative leaders of the industry, Dan Wieden passed away recently, and I was reflecting on one of his quotes, because one of the things that people talked about, about Wieden+Kennedy and still talk about, is their ability to embrace chaos. And he said, “Chaos is the only thing that honestly wants you to grow, the only friend that really helps you be creative.”
And I love that idea of chaos, because I feel like we’ve probably lost sight of that in trying to turn advertising into traditional businesses, haven’t we?
Damon:
Yeah, well, I actually wrote about that, and it’s quite funny you say that, because he actually spoke about it — I saw him about 2015/2016, and somebody asked him what his formula for creativity was, and he basically said, “Fuck off. There’s no formula for chaos.”
The guy was a genius. But what he understood was, you cannot get somewhere new by having a formula. You can’t do something that’s going to surprise the world by having a formula that’s foolproof. He understood that our job is to go and embrace chaos, to go to places that you’re not supposed to go.
Otherwise (and I always say this), creativity is not the matrix, it’s the glitch in the matrix. And that is essentially what the value of creativity is. It is to find new places, new ways, new spaces. If you take that away from creativity, then it does just become the coloring end department, as we often are called or we are decorative.
But the real value of creativity is how you can transform something and create something new out of nothing. So, he understood that better than just about anybody.
Darren:
Yeah. And it’s interesting as well, because I feel sometimes that in trying to explain or process the advertising process — and I see this; agencies presenting a chart in their credentials where they talk about their advertising process. You just said that Dan Wieden said there’s no formula.
I just wonder sometimes as to why they talk about a process, and here’s the bit where the creativity happens, as if it’s sort of isolated to one particular point.
Damon:
Yeah, it’s like quarantine, it’s isolated. But I think that the reason that’s done, is it makes everybody feel safe and secure. The real truth is, who knows where ideas come from. And it’s such an irrational thing, that I think we constantly try and make it rational because that is a way to sell.
But the reality is great ideas, they happen in a million different ways. You’ve just got to have the right people, in the right environment and you’ve got more chance of hitting them. But creativity is not something that can be defined. That’s the point.
Darren:
Though, really smart people can see it when they’re shown it, can’t they?
Damon:
Well, I think really great people and agencies and really great clients, except that it happens in maybe a slightly strange way, but they can spot an idea. And I think the really great creative directors that I’ve worked with and the really great clients that I’ve worked with can see an idea.
And when that happens, that’s when it all comes together. So, I think sometimes it’s getting out of the way, but then being able to see the result rather than the process.
Darren:
Now look, I know this is going to be a difficult question because you have won lots of creative awards and other advertising awards, but do you think somehow that the structure of the advertising award process also limits the recognition of the role creativity plays?
And specifically, I’m talking about the fact that it’s so discipline or executionally driven, it’s about the media channel rather than really the idea.
Damon:
Yeah, it’s an interesting question. The one thing I do think is there’s probably too many awards. So, I’ll put that out there. I think the other thing I’d say is that, it’s very hard to have a finite award for something that’s infinite. And what I mean by that is when Cannes started in 1992, I think there were two categories. There was print and there was television.
Today, I think there are 30 or 40 categories, and how you actually award work now is actually quite difficult, because the lines have become so blurred between categories. Is that a mobile idea? Is that a media idea? Is that a digital idea? Is that a direct idea? Are they all the same? So, I think there’s a problem with definition, because I think almost everything now is advertising.
And when everything’s advertising, how do you sort of break it apart? So, I think that’s going to be a question as we go forward, as to how we define advertising and what’s good and what isn’t. And looking at things like channels.
I think that no one really has paid maybe as much attention as they should have to, maybe how much advertising’s changed in the last 10 years. And I think it’s changed incredibly.
I think about when I started and integrated campaign was TV, radio, and print. You think what an integrated campaign is today and you could have 10 channels, 15 channels, it’s a much more complicated beast. And I don’t think we always look at that and say how much advertising has actually changed.
Darren:
Yeah. My frustration is that ideas (to your point) are limitless as in the application. In fact, the stronger the idea, the more applications it’ll invariably have. One of the measures of a creative platform or an idea without boundaries, is that it can be applied to all sorts of channels. And yet the awards seem to be focused on that.
Damon:
I’d say one thing about that, Darren, I think there’s good and bad in that. It’s what I call Swiss Army knife ideas. And what I mean by that, is you can have this platform that goes everywhere. It doesn’t always necessarily mean it’s going to be interesting or entertaining.
So, if you look at say (and I’m going to show my age here) Cadbury Gorilla in 2006, that was a great piece of work. But no one was saying, “Well, what’s the six second bumper ad?” So, you made-
Darren:
Or the poster.
Damon:
Or the poster. So, you made something that was not everywhere. It was somewhere. Often what we do today is we try and make an idea that goes everywhere. And I think maybe we should have more conversations about A, should it go everywhere? And if it does go everywhere, is that still as efficient and effective as doing something that’s going to really get your attention?
Those are philosophical debates, I know. But it is something I’ve noticed over the last 10 years where advertising used to — or often was like a showstopper. Now, it’s something that’s more of a utility and it’s a much more useful thing. But does it make the idea as cut through?
Darren:
Well, and so, I’ll challenge you on that example because I actually think that Cadbury Gorilla, the underlying idea is the sheer joy of the product. And so, then that can become the part that extends into all sorts of executions. That’s what I love about it.
So, on that bigger idea because again, the Gorilla is an execution in a channel of that sort of thought or platform.
Damon:
I launched Joyville in 2012, in Australia. The thing I would say is that Joy was always the platform, but they could never really replicate Gorilla.
Darren:
No.
Damon:
And there’s actually other ideas they did afterwards that never quite got there. So, sometimes you just have lightning in a bottle. Sometimes you just have something that just for a certain reason, for a certain moment in time, it just works. And often what happens is, in our business, we go, “We want another one of those.” And it’s a very hard thing to replicate.
Darren:
And one of the defaults is, “That’s a great big idea, can we have a bigger idea?” It invariably comes with a bigger budget and it’s not necessarily the bigger idea, it’s just a bigger production.
Damon:
Yeah. Who was it? Was it Winston Churchill who said, “We don’t have any money, so we’ll have to think.”
Darren:
Yes.
Damon:
And I don’t think big ideas always have to have big budgets, but I do think these days with the proliferation of channels, it becomes a very important question when you think about the type of idea you’re trying to have.
I think when you’re just trying to do television or you’re just trying to do one channel, it is a much easier game to play. I think if you’re trying to do a very comprehensive integrated campaign these days, you have to think very carefully about how this idea is going to work and how it’s all going to join up.
Darren:
And Damon, what do you think of an approach for awards where you actually do it by advertiser category, so that you actually do things like consumer package goods or financial services rather than by the actual channel discipline or execution? Because there are particular challenges, aren’t there, to being particularly creative, innovative in some categories over others.
Damon:
Yeah, it’s a difficult question to answer because I don’t know if there’s a perfect way to do it. What I would say though is that there is advertising that maybe 10 or 15 years ago was top of the pile and now is not.
So, there’s whole categories for me that have disappeared and are not particularly creative anymore. And if you look at gaming or if you look at technology, if you look at Cannes now, there are things that win now, that didn’t win 10 years ago. And there’s stuff that 10 years ago was very, very successful, but you don’t see it anymore.
I think of car advertising; car advertising used to be the gold standard of the kind of work that would win a Cannes. But I would say car advertising now is not … you don’t see it very much with Cannes.
So, there’s a question, I guess, in terms of category. And I suppose there’s also a question about maybe some things are just easier to advertise now in a modern world than you could do 10 years ago, which probably would’ve leant towards television or something like that.
Darren:
So, it’s interesting you picked automotive, because of all categories, could you pick one that’s going through more of a disruption? Probably not since Henry Ford’s Model T rolled off the production line, has the auto industry been confronted with a bigger challenge and a bigger disruption than they are now?
Damon:
And I would say the work-
Darren:
The advertising should reflect that.
Damon:
Yeah. You think about what’s happening with EVs and stuff like that, it feels like the categories are up to do something pretty outrageous and do something that’s going to get you noticed, because the product has definitely changed.
But I don’t know if the advertising has yet. It’s still car on a winding road or family getting into car on a winding road. There’s a lot of advertising that looks very similar. I think it’s an opportunity.
Darren:
Yeah. To go around and pick all those categories that as you say, have really fallen into the formula of their category and start disrupting it.
Damon:
Yeah. But it takes a certain amount of bravery to do that. And I can imagine that’s quite a scary thing to do. At my time at TBWA, they used to practice disruption. I just think if you want to get noticed, you have to not do what your competitor’s doing.
Or you’ve got to have such a difference in your product. And I think that’s maybe … these days, I don’t know how much difference there is in products. So, I think your tone in your advertising becomes more important.
Darren:
Well, that becomes the thing that can create the difference, at least the perception difference, if not the tangible difference.
Damon:
Yeah.
Darren:
Yeah. Hey, how long have you been writing Damon’s Brain for?
Damon:
I’ve been writing it for 10 years and I’ve had about 250,000 people read it. And yeah, I think it started off as therapy for me.
Because what I found when I started writing it, is that there were lots of people that were not creative, that were writing about being creative. And I just thought maybe I should write about it and see if anyone agrees.
And it was pretty cathartic for me, but also, I’ve built up a little bit of a community of creatives around the world and what’s amazing is how similar we have the same problems. Doesn’t matter if you’re in London or New York or Minneapolis, the emails I get are always about the same kinds of things.
And I guess it was just an exploration into what I think creativity is. And now, it’s just become sort of a habit, I guess. I don’t know what I’d do if I didn’t write it.
Darren:
Well, I have to tell you, it’s one of those blogs that you start reading and then you find something else. I lost hours the other day just reading it, I have to say to that-
Damon:
That makes me very happy, Darren.
Darren:
Well, anyone that’s interested, truly interested in the sort of discipline and there is a discipline, first of all, to writing, but also, the way that you talk about and share the creative experience is really insightful. And I’d highly recommend it, to anyone interested in that.
Damon:
All creatives sort of suffer from imposter syndrome on some level. And I suppose I started writing It, because I was made ECD of Hunt Lascaris when I was about 31-years-old. And that was a 400 person agency. And that was probably about five years too early. I really didn’t know what I was doing.
And, I suppose the blog was about me trying to figure out and explain the process that I’ve been through, to kind of develop into a creative and hopefully it helps other creatives. So, that’s why I always say for the creatives, because I know it can be very lonely late at night staring at a blank piece of paper or a screen, and until you’ve done that, there’s a lot of fear, a lot of fear doing this as a job. So, that’s kind of why I do it, I guess.
Darren:
Well, I was also thinking of it from the point of view of marketers that really want to understand what goes on in that process, because I think somewhere along the line, agencies started treating creative people a little bit differently or positioning them differently in regards to their clients.
It was like, “Oh, we are bringing the creatives to this meeting. Isn’t that special?” Clap, clap, clap. When in actual fact, the truth is, yes, they are people, creative people are people. What they do is they’re willing to put themselves out there to solve a problem and they’re willing to do those hard yards.
Sharing that, and at least getting an appreciation of some of the challenges and things like that, would be so insightful for a lot of marketers to understand.
Damon:
Yeah. It’s a weird one. Creatives, yeah sure, I think often, there’s a fear that they’ll say something inappropriate or make a joke in bad taste or I don’t know. But the thing about-
Darren:
Hopefully.
Damon:
Hopefully. But what creatives do is they’re sort of honest about the problem.
Darren:
Yeah.
Damon:
And I think the really great agencies or when suits, strategists, creatives work together, it shouldn’t be an us and them thing. I’ve never believed that. I’ve never believed that creatives have all the answers.
But when you walk in that room and you’re with the client, they should feel that those different perspectives are working together.
But when you don’t have creatives in the room, I don’t think that’s necessarily better, because without them, you want to challenge the thinking. You want to ask difficult questions, you want to talk about stuff that isn’t a hundred percent or doesn’t quite work or doesn’t make sense. You need creatives.
And I think I’ve worked with my partner Justin; we’ve worked together for eight or nine years. We don’t always agree, but when we tackle a problem, it’s because we’re trying to solve it.
And I think creatives, there’s all sorts of weird ideas about creatives. Creatives are just trying to solve a problem or come up with an idea, that’s all they’re trying to do. But sometimes, the process gets in the way of them presenting those ideas, because maybe they’re too dangerous or maybe they’re wrong.
And I read about this thing in Silicon Valley, where there’s this rule where if you have an idea, you have to talk it up for five minutes. You’re not allowed to bomb the idea. And I’ve always thought it was a great thing where I’ve got this saying, which is, “Ideas are like goldfish, easy to kill.”
And I often think the really great agencies keep their ideas alive for 10 more seconds. They’re able to go in the room and put some crazy stuff out there, but they can keep that idea alive.
Because that’s where the great stuff is. The great stuff’s in the deep water. You have to go there. You can’t fake it. But it’s scary. And I think the one thing we probably don’t talk enough about in our business also is trust.
And I don’t mean that in a bumper sticker kind of way, is that, you do need to develop a relationship to do really great work because it doesn’t happen, just because I walked in a room with a little idea. And I think that’s even more true today, because the campaigns we’re doing are far more complex.
Darren:
Yeah. I always say to people it’s trust and respect, and it goes both ways. What you were saying before about talking up an idea reminded me of Edward de Bono’s book, I Am Right, You Are Wrong, which I love the title.
And he talks about the difference between rock thinking and water thinking. And the West is rock thinking. The idea is put on the table and everyone gets their rock out and bashes it to see if they can break it. It started with Socrates and Plato. So, that’s why it’s seen as a Western philosophy.
Whereas, the Eastern philosophy, they call water thinking, which is the idea is like the drop of water and the role is to add to it, so that that drop turns into a trickle, which turns into a brook, and then a river, and then an ocean, because that’s what makes it more powerful.
I think it’s a really interesting approach, because so often, you see ideas get killed because someone just happens to have a big rock in the room.
Damon:
Well, I think the problem with that, as you call it rock thinking, is that’s not how great ideas happen. The way great ideas happen, my old boss used to say, “The ceiling of one idea is the floor of the next.” And I’ve always thought that was a great way of explaining it.
Or there’s a quote by Paul Klee, which is (he’s a great artist), “A line is a dot that went for a walk.” And what I love about that is, you need to have some ideas, some bad ideas even, to get somewhere great.
So, if you’re in a space where one idea … it’s like improv. If you think of improv, they’ve got a rule, which is “Yes, and”. So, if you’re on stage in improv, you can never not do what the other person’s doing. You have to build on it.
And I often think that’s how you get to great work, but it’s not really natural in the corporate environment to work that way. Because what you’re doing is you’re always judging things if they’re right or wrong.
But sometimes, great ideas, it’s not really about right or wrong, it’s just about sitting in that process. And seeing where it goes. But that can be scary for people.
Darren:
So, it’s interesting because there was a client, they were complaining about their agency’s creative output. And what they would do is that they had this hierarchy that the junior brand managers would break the agency and put them through iterations of work.
And then, time would run out and it would go to the next level, which was the marketing manager who would look at what’s done and then re-brief the agency. And then it would go to the next level, until finally the CMO would look at everything and sometimes, dozens of ideas and then go, “I want a bit of that, a bit of that and a bit of that. And I want it by Monday.”
And we pointed out first of all, the average number of iterations, this is average, was 17; 17 different creative ideas to every brief. But we also pointed out the amount of time and money they were wasting. And the CMO said, “It doesn’t matter. That’s how I get the best ideas.” I’m thinking they’re a little deluded as to what the best idea is.
Damon:
The best idea — well, I think that’s the worst way you can work.
Darren:
Exactly.
Damon:
When you’ve got hierarchy like that, what essentially happens is we just try to get all of your suggestions on one page. And I was once asked to do a15-second ad and I think there were 16 products. So, you now have to show 16 products in 15 seconds. And everyone looked at me like that was a perfectly rational thing to do.
Well, if I show you the ad we made, it wasn’t that rational, because it’s just crazy. And I think in the process that you’re talking about, that’s what happens. The junior marketing manager has two ideas, and this guy’s got an idea, this guy’s got an idea, and then the CMOs got this idea — all you’re really doing is trying to find a way to jam all of those ideas together. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be great work.
The best way to do it would be actually, and I don’t know if this has ever been tried, it’s just sit around a table and chat to each other.
Darren:
Yeah.
Damon:
Yeah, I know. It’s crazy. Because then it becomes a human process and it becomes a much more organic process. When you’re doing these very formal presentations backwards and forwards, it’s like marking homework, and if you’ve got a little bit of an idea, it’s probably going to get killed. It’s probably going to die.
So, what I would highly recommend is sit down, have a chat. I know we have to write things and we have to write briefs in that, but the really great work is when you can have a conversation and go, “Do you think this is right or wrong?” Or, “Do you think this is interesting?” Maybe is a better way of saying it.
And if you can have that conversation, you’ve got a much better chance than on the 19th on February, the debrief said these 19th things, you’ve only done 16 of them blah, blah, blah. That’s not a process for creativity, that’s a process for being correct. But correct and interesting are not always the same thing.
Darren:
Yeah. One of the things I find myself talking a lot to clients about is this idea — and I use again, the automotive industry. The automotive industry spends a lot of time, money, and resources getting the prototype built.
Damon:
Yeah.
Darren:
And then, they really optimize the production line to produce the automobile to the standard, to the quality, but in the shortest possible time and in the variation.
And I’m wondering if advertising’s headed the same way, because when we started back in 2004, 2005, the average brand would produce around 200 pieces of work a year. Now, with social media and the like, it’s producing 2 to 3,000 pieces of work a year.
Damon:
Yeah. I didn’t know that. That’s a lot.
Darren:
Yeah. Well, it’s exponentially increased. You think about all those Facebook updates and Instagram updates and digital ads and all that sort of thing, it’s exponentially increased. At the same time, the budgets being spent with agencies have effectively flatlined. And the timeline to turn all this work around is shortened.
Back in the early 2000s, the typical campaign development would be six to eight weeks minimum, before you even got into production. There were campaigns that would take six months or more to actually … from briefing to on air or in market.
Damon:
Sure.
Darren:
So, all of these challenges have occurred. Is it time to rethink the role, so that we put more investment in getting the real value, which is the thinking, the idea. And then, because people talk about efficiencies, the efficiencies should be in the part where it’s going to have the biggest benefit with the least amount of downside.
Damon:
I suppose what it comes down to is what is good these days. And maybe good has changed, maybe good is about — if you’ve gone from making 200 pieces to 2000 pieces, you can’t tell me that we’re still on the same planet. Things have changed.
So, I guess the question, what is the definition of good or great. And when I look at a lot of work that’s made for online consumption, for me, a lot of it looks like 1950s print ads. It’s like a guy holding a beer and a headline that says, “Yay, it’s Friday.” And you go, “So, is that good? Is that innovative? Could we be doing better work in those channels?” Probably. But if you have to make a thousand pieces of content, maybe, maybe not.
And I think is a big discussion in terms of what does good look like these days? Because it seems to me a lot of the conversations about how do you make a lot of content, maybe we should have more conversations about making great content.
But that’s me as a creative, from a marketer’s perspective, they might go, “That’s not really that important.” Maybe there are other things that are more important, but it is a discussion worth having, because I think if you’re doing that, you probably find your competitor can do exactly what you’re doing.
Darren:
That’s right. And there is an industry sense that the work generally, and I don’t want you to label me as someone saying that advertising’s dead. I’m not saying it’s dead, but there’s definitely a sense that people are looking for how can we do this better, rather than just keep doing what we are always doing and getting worse results. I think that’s that quote about, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome.”
Damon:
Yeah. I think the question is, what is advertising? And I went to Cannes this year and I came away going, “Well, advertising is now everything.” What’s a Gordon Ramsey cook show? That’s an advert, it’s just half an hour long; entertainment, gaming.
So, I think the real conversation is, if you look at advertising today, how do you cut through and how do you do it in a way that you can do for your budget? And I still come back to the fact that you need an idea. I don’t think that’s going to change. You can have as many channels as you like.
There’s a great quote by The Economist, which is, “Would you sit next to you at a dinner party?” And I’ve always loved that, because you can be in the right place at the right time, contextually, but if you’ve got nothing to say and you’re not interesting — I think Ogilvy said, “You can’t bore people into buying your product.”
And I think at the end of the day, you still have to be interesting and maybe these days, you have to be more interesting than ever. But I don’t know if volume alone solves that problem.
Darren:
Yeah. We live in interesting times as they say. I think perhaps, if we put a brief out to the creative industries to say, “How do we do this better?” That might be a worthwhile exercise.
Damon:
Having said that though, I do think there’s also a conversation that we need to probably have about, how has our industry changed in the last 50 or 60 years? And if the world is changing, maybe that’s a conversation we have to look at. You have to look at data, creativity, and technology now. You can’t hanker for the 1990s, the world has changed.
So, there is a job that has to be done by advertising agencies in the industry to go, “Okay, what is this brave new world? And what are we going to do with it? There’s some new ingredients here.” But I think what used to be the cutting edge, advertising used to be the cutting edge. I guess the question is, is advertising still the cutting edge?
Darren:
Look, I think that’s happening a lot. Unfortunately, the new thing that everyone’s talking about is the technology and the technology alone is just the enabler. And when they do talk about creativity, it always gets talked about in isolation about awards and ideas and things.
But it’s that combination. One of my favorite interviews was … his name escapes me, he was at Pixar, the director, an animator that went from Disney to Pixar. When you can get a creative person and a technology person sitting in a room, talking to each other the same language, then suddenly, it’s in that chaos in a way that you suddenly start getting new opportunities and new ideas.
It’s the ability of the creative person to ask what some people would say, is the dumb question and the technology person to be inspired to try something different that actually leads to that innovation, isn’t it?
Damon:
I think you’ve got to have a fusion of data’s not an idea, technology’s not an idea; neither is creativity for that matter. But I think it’s when you fuse them together that you can create something new. One of the reasons I’ve done what I’ve done, is because I want to go and learn about how to pull these things together.
Because I think these ingredients are not going away. I don’t think data’s going to go away, I don’t think technology’s going to go away. But I also don’t think you can use those two without creativity. So, you got to make friends.
Darren:
Yeah.
Damon:
And we got to get together and figure out how to pull these things together, because I think when you do, you could truly make a quantum leap. And you could start to make work that we’ve never seen before. And I think, as a creative, I always want to do something new. I always want to do something that hasn’t been done. So, that’s kind of why I’m doing what I’m doing.
Darren:
Well, Damon, this has been a terrific opportunity. Thank you for letting me climb inside Damon’s brain for what is it? 35, 40 minutes. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much.
Damon:
Thanks, Darren. Thanks a lot, man.
Darren:
I do have one question before we go. And that is obviously, like you’ll be seeing the opportunities ahead of you, but when you look back on your career, is there one piece of work that you almost feel like could become your epitaph?
Damon:
Yes.
Darren:
Well, I’m going to cut that off.