Tom Donald is the Creative Strategy Lead, and Mick Boston is the Head of Design at Lion in Australia. As insiders at a major Australian beverage company, they are well placed and qualified to discuss the benefits of having creative strategy and design inside.
When the industry talks about in-house agencies, many think about production and maybe media. But what happens when an organisation takes creative strategy and design leadership in-house? What are the implications and opportunities for the marketing team, the broader organisation, and their existing agencies?
Tom and Mick share their role and the opportunities and value they create, connecting and championing creative strategy and design within and outside the organisation.
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Always fighting for the best work is so important and integral to what you’re doing. Being able to judge it, foster it, and fan the flames on the ideas that are in the mix and worthy of further consideration is so much of what we have to do.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I am Darren Woolley, founder, and CEO of TrinityP3, Marketing Management Consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
Now, if you’re enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
When we hear the industry talk about in-house agencies, some may think about creative production and even media. But what happens when an organization takes creative strategy and design leadership in-house? What are the implications and opportunities for the marketing team, the wider organization, and their existing agencies?
My guests today are leading creative strategy and design inside a major Australian beverage company and are well-placed and qualified to discuss the benefits of having creative strategy and design inside. Please welcome to Managing Marketing Podcast, Creative Strategy Lead at Lion, Tom Donald. Welcome, Tom.
Tom:
Thank you very much mate.
Darren:
And Head of Design at Lion, Mick Boston. Welcome.
Mick:
Thanks for having me. This is exciting.
Darren:
It’s a great opportunity from my perspective, because often this idea of in-house agency really is just a very small part of the overall advertising offering.
Whereas I see both of you representing almost the core of the value proposition that agencies offer and taking that inside, it’s almost like the beating heart of creative advertising now being transplanted into organizations. How do you feel about that perspective of what you’re doing, Tom?
Tom:
I think to use your metaphor of the beating heart, I don’t think we’re taking the whole heart of what a really amazing design firm or a really amazing creative advertising agency offer. I do think we’re taking elements of it.
So, when you say, “You take the whole heart of it in-house”, I think if I was an advertising agency or a design firm, that would fill me with fear because it’s like, well then what’s our value add, right?
Darren:
They’re bloodless.
Tom:
But the reality is, when you work with first tier agencies and design firms – and we’ve got a couple on the roster from Thinkerbell through to Weave and various others – the value they bring is something that’s very hard to bring in-house.
So one of the jobs we have is to ensure we are a bridge or a translation service – to steal some of Mick’s language – between brand marketing and marketing managers, and getting the best work out of creatives. So we do bring a bit of the magic in-house, but it’s not to the detriment or robbing anything from those creative partners. I think we actually help them unlock their work.
Darren:
No, it’s a fair point because you’re still working with these external agencies where that skill exists. But yeah, Mick, you did mention earlier before we started talking about this role of translation.
Mick:
Yes. It’s kind of the gag I make the first-time people meet me in Lion especially as that I’m there for translation services and I think especially in the world of branding and design and even to advertising in that respect. There’s a lot of vernacular that doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to a designer or a creative or vice versa with a marketer.
So, for instance, in my arrival at Lion, it was like the jargon heavy acronym world was head spinning. I had to basically walk around with a source trying to unpick everything and understand what everything was.
But then being able to translate that when you’re doing a brief for one of our brands for a redesign or a campaign, you’ve kind of got to unpack it all and make sense to those teams on the other side, but then do it the other way around.
So, some of the language a designer may use, especially when they’re speaking about the finessing a certain level of kerning on a certain typeface if we’re getting really crafty. It’s going to go straight over the heads or the eyes glaze over.
Its about being able to translate the importance and what those aspects add to the work, to a marketer. So, they’re appreciated just as much as the team on the other side do. It’s kind of what you do, it’s kind of 50% of the job, really. Yeah.
Darren:
It is interesting, isn’t it? Because marketing is part of communications and yet organizations do often build their own language that only really exists within the organization and agencies, to your point, and designers have their language.
I like that idea of part of this is translation. But is it also deeper than that, obviously, because it’s then going beyond allowing them to … or facilitating communication to really get an appreciation of the value that’s being created here.
Mick:
Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a good way of unpacking it. I think being able to, yes, cross communicate across the two teams is super important. But a lot of what Tom and I have to do as well is ensure that the work is the best it possibly can be.
And because our backgrounds come from outside of marketing groups and businesses, you know what it takes to create great work and what a good idea looks like and those sort of things.
So, always fighting for the best work is so important and integral in what you’re doing and be able to judge it and be able to foster it and fan the flames on the ideas that are in the mix that are worthy of further consideration is so much of what we have to do.
Tom:
And I think when we were at our best, 50% of the time we’re internal champions for our agencies and design firm partners, actually helping to protect stuff. And the other 50% is helping our brand and marketing managers get what they actually need. So, it is a dance.
Darren:
Yeah. I was going to say Tom, because part of what Mick said could be interpreted by people that you’ve taken over the role of things like creative directors and design leads externally who have a role in their own organizations in an agency of making sure they produce the best product.
But you’re probably better situated because you are closer to marketing and the organization and have an appreciation for those external parties that you’re working with, the agencies.
Tom:
I think so, partly because we are around the brand managers and the marketing managers all day, so our ability to have conversations and take them on journeys and see, take them through it. The amount of face-to-face time is so much more than a creative director, or a design lead is going to get.
That when we’re tag teaming on stuff that we know is right, the ability to play a bit of an internal creative director role, while that’s not formally in our job description, we are on the hook for the quality of the creative and with an eye to that. It is taking people internally at Lion on a journey from how to go from good to better and better and better and better. So, it’s a tag team so to speak.
Mick:
Yeah, yeah, very much so. I think the other thing is identifying that talent in-house as well, that get it and helping them pull the things that they get, their sense of taste or their ability to identify great work or ask for what they need or understand what their brand needs, and help them get those ideas across to the agency and support their vision as well, not just the other way around. So, it’s definitely a two-way street.
Tom:
Definitely.
Darren:
So, part of that’s helping because a lot of people would be sitting there going, “Well, wouldn’t marketers just know how to do that? Isn’t that part of their job is to brief agencies and judge the work and give feedback?”
But in actual fact that quick can be significant obstacles in being able to articulate the nuance of strategy or the nuance of design to just get that incremental improvement.
Tom:
Yeah. I mean, I’m stealing Anubha’s language – Anubha Sahasrabuddhe who’s now the Chief Growth Officer at Lion and was the CMO and s the one who set up the Connections team. But stealing from her and other people who’ve worked with this model: For the modern Brand or Marketing Manager, there’s just simply too much for them to have to be expert at to also be experts at briefing creative agencies working with them and getting the best work.
So, you are right, in theory, great Brand Managers should be able to do all that. And there are probably, look globally, there are going to be some that can. But they are a rare unicorn. And so, this function is acknowledging that most Brand Managers who have to run everything from customer accounts to relationships to P&Ls, to everything. And so, it’s just acknowledging that that can’t all be done and so we are here to help.
Darren:
That’s part of the problem, isn’t it, is just sheer lack of time to actually be able to build a perspective or build the feedback that you need to give to actually get the best response from your agencies.
Tom:
Yeah. And as we all know, I mean, there’s less and less and less time, as capitalism gets faster and faster and faster enabled through technology and stuff. There’s just simply not enough hours in the day, I think, to get that job done right.
Which is what people like Coke and Mars acknowledged because they’re the innovators of this Connections model. To say the quality of everything in the marketing mix is going down because these people are trying to do everything, and they can’t. And so, break it up and give them the support where needed.
Darren:
Because it’s interesting the Connections model because it does look at all of the possible channels and the way that consumers and customers interact with both of those, isn’t it?
Tom:
Yeah. I mean, Mick and I partner with Clare Tsubono, who’s media, we partner with Sophie Breheny, who’s earned focused. We’ve got connections planners in the Connections team. We’ve got producers. Yeah, it is. It’s very much bringing a lot of those skills in-house.
And that’s not like Clare doesn’t tell you what to do, but just like Mick’s talking about providing translation services, she’s providing those translation services so that we get what we need on time and on budget, et cetera, et cetera.
Darren:
So, as this Creative Strategy Lead, if you were pinned to the wall and someone said, what is it that you’re responsible for? I think it’d be really worthwhile giving a better sort of definition of that because I think people use words like strategy and are not really sure what that means.
Tom:
Yeah. Totally.
Darren:
Particularly creative strategy, because it’s like, well, what’s the-
Tom:
What does that mean?
Darren:
Is that a strategy that’s creative or a strategy for a creative response? Or both?
Tom:
Yeah. Look, it’s a job title that exists that I would never — I’m one of these people who hates the word strategy. It’s used far too much. One of my favorite thing is an essay from 30 years ago by John Kay from The Financial Times of The Economist. It should be a synonym for expensive. It’s a strategic acquisition.
But look, the Creative Strategist role within the Connections model is really twofold. And the way we’ve kind of tried to delineate it within the Lion is the Creative Strategist is a partner for the brand teams who is very responsible for brand strategy.
We don’t outsource what is the strategy that underpins any of the individual brands to our agencies. You’ve got to own that and live and breathe that in-house. So, there was a pulling back of Weave or Thinkerbell – you are to be not responsible for brand strategy as that’s now done in-house.
So that’s a core part of the role. Now, once those brand strategies are set, which we’ve kind of cleaned them up and set most of them up over the last almost two years, and that was a huge amount of work because for a variety of reasons, they were in various different states from really strong to really weak.
The next thing is to be that bridge is to partner with the agencies and your brand managers and your marketing managers just to get the best work possible. So, I’d say it’s a hybrid role where you’re partly a classic brand strategist.
And then there is this new role, which I’ve had to learn my way into. And look, I started off very briefly as an art director, so I feel like I have some ability to comment on creative, but the past 20 years I’ve really just been pure strategy.
But there is a little bit of an internal creative director role. Which is why I lean on Mick so much, particularly for the visual perspective. I can look at it from is this comms going to work the way advertising works, is it going to be quick? Is it going to blink, what it’s going to be? But it’s that, so it’s a bit strategy, a bit creative director.
Darren:
Tom, when people say to me things like, “Well, there’s an element of magic in creativity.” I say, “Absolutely.” It’s that divine moment of inspiration where someone takes all of that thinking and a distillation of what a brand represents and actually turns it into an idea that is often surprising, inspirational, or amazing but at the same time seems completely logical.
Because if the strategy was done well, almost the idea in hindsight looks like, “Well, that’s so simple and so obvious.” Yeah.
Tom:
And we’re still relying on our agency partners for those moments of magic. We’re not trying to steal that from them.
Mick:
No, not at all.
Tom:
At all.
Darren:
Absolutely. And which is why you have an external partner to do that because often corporate cultures can be counter to that moment of magic.
Tom:
Almost always. Which is why you need a Connections team to fight for it.
Darren:
Now I just want to flip over, Mick, to design, because a lot of people have very old-fashioned definitions of Design. It was the pretty pictures and the setting the typeface and kerning and leading.
But Design’s come a long way. And in fact, I read articles all the time where they’re talking about design in customer experience, which doesn’t seem to have anything to do with font choice. How would you define your role as what are the things that you are touching and influencing?
Mick:
Yeah, I think that it’s a pretty broad-church design, to steal the phrase from the liberal party.
Darren:
I was going to say that, you got in first.
Mick:
It kind of covers everything that needs to live in the real world in some respects. And even these days it’s living in the virtual world too. And I think that’s why the language of design sort of been really grabbed onto with things like customer experience and experience mapping and design thinking. And I heard design listening used the other day. I’m a big fan of design doing. But it’s definitely-
Darren:
Well, that’s where the rubber hits the road supposedly.
Mick:
Yes, exactly. Yeah. But for me, it’s the point of contact between what a business is trying to do, or an entity is trying to do and to create a response or an emotion in a consumer at the base level. And I think that’s where design lives and breathes.
Like even to the point of considering communications is a subset of design. We’re crafting something to get a reaction, or a response is where it lives. That’s very esoteric.
But basically, it does mean, my remit is very much around ensuring that these massive brands that we’re in charge of being allowed to play with, have a moment with consumers out there that is positive and exciting and interesting, and that fits their needs and carries on those legacies, or gets them excited about something new.
So, for me, it’s very much about how much emotional connection does what we do at Lion make with consumers to get them excited about buying a six pack or a case or talking to their friends. Have you tried this? Or have you seen that? It sounds very broad, but it’s kind of what we have to do.
Darren:
Well, the words that jumped out were this idea of emotion. Because a lot of people talk about advertising, creating emotion, but I think it also comes down to the difference between brand and branding.
And the ability … you know when you see something, and you don’t even see the logo type. But you immediately associate it with a brand because there are elements that just resonate as so familiar that make you think of that brand.
To me that’s an example of getting design at the Zenith of being able to create a emotional response or even a thought connection.
Mick:
Yeah. I think Mark Ritson uses the word brand codes for that sort of stuff, and it sort of covers everything from its colour and fonts, but it’s also what emotion are you tying to that brand? What memory have you created? They make up that world of the codes that are owned … that a brand can try and own, so to speak.
So, for us, for our brands, like we’ve got ones that have got these long-lasting codes. So, whether it’s … I feel like a Tooheys, that jingle that anyone of my vintage will remember wholeheartedly and anyone maybe slightly younger.
Those things are the pieces that instantly create memory. I think the tough thing these days is trying to do that with new brands. So, what are the new codes? How do I create familiarity now? And I think that’s where we are being forced to be a bit more disruptive, a little louder, a little crazier. And I think that’s where contemporary design is really trying to inject itself into the everyday.
Some people have — you could argue that the Facebooks of the world have turned that up to 11 with using emotion as a weapon to get you to keep scrolling, that’s still design. That’s the bad way of doing things. But the good way it could be like making things bolder and brighter and more exciting and a bit more fun.
Darren:
Well, it’s interesting brand code because yes, you’re right. It’s something Mark Ritson talks about all the time. But you don’t hear that conversation very much in marketing departments or in agencies unless someone brings it up.
It’s almost like sometimes brand codes are discovered after they were created rather than necessarily designed in the first place. That’s my interpretation. And I’m happy for you to challenge me on that.
But I often feel like some of the best brands like Cadbury purple, remember they tried to enforce the trade or tried to trademark the Cadbury Dairy Milk purple, for instance. Now they could get away — I think they did for the scrolling script.
And Coca-Cola’s done it. But it’s almost like these days, people, because of the internet, because of IP having suddenly some sort of commercial value, people are very quick to go out and trademark things, but they’re not necessarily brand codes just because you have a trademark. They become a brand code after your customers start associating emotions with those codes.
Mick:
I think that’s the power of communications in that respect. Like the advertising groups that we’re fortunate enough to work with. If we are bringing something new to the table, how important it is to have a creative partner in agencies that can turn message into code really quick.
So, for instance, we’ve got a wonderful Japanese beverage, it’s launched end of last year that we’re trying to create a tagline with and bury it into and create a code on that where you start, where you need to draw from in those codes. And we think about where we very cleverly got to with the tagline was, “what are the codes of Australian understanding of Japanese language?” Or “what’s the experience of Japan?”
So, they came up with the really fun non-sequitur line Hello Yes to refer to the name of the product, which is completely unpronounceable. But you just know it’s kind of like, that’s that wacky Japanese drink. I’ll give it a crack. So, now it’s a case of repetition to bed it in. Yeah.
Tom:
I think also, I mean, I’m just trying to link codes to sort of this notion of in-housing, you’re right that most codes on the big brands became codes over time. And they may not have initially been thought about as something though I have a feeling that people in sort of the early 1900s through to about the 50s were better at marketing and branding than people were sort of from the 60s through to about 15 years ago.
The impact of the Byron Sharps and the Ritsons and the understanding of how all this stuff actually works on this industry. I mean, I’ve been in this game for what, 25, 26 years, Mick’s a little younger than me, but I can watch the shift in clients and agencies as they’ve really grokked all that stuff. And you do see the huge shift.
But to tie it back to in-housing, I think one of the values of having a team of internal experts who actually fully understand what a distinctive brand asset is, what distinctive brand asset, what it is, what it isn’t, which ones are for which brands in our portfolio, which are negotiable, which are non-negotiable, where and how do they turn up?
And then being able to work with the agencies. Because agencies love them, but they always want to do new stuff. It’s a very rare agency that goes, “I’m going to pick up purple and I’m going to pick up gold and I’m just going to run that for the next five years and clip the ticket.”
But you need that discipline in-house to do that. And so, but look, both sides of the fence are getting better. And think about what they sponsor anyway, so they’re an agency that’s embraced it, but there is a utility to making sure that you’ve got that discipline in-house. Because depending on your agency village or who you’re partnered with, it might be harder to police if you like, not police our job’s not big cops.
Darren:
Well, but that picks up on what Mick said about “I feel like a Tooheys” because where you have a brand code that’s been established, knowing when to go back and reinstate it or refresh it or …
And in fact, with one of your competitors, Victoria Bitter, they went off the track and there’s quite a good case study, I think it was in Unmade where they went back and then worked out how to take that code of a hard earned thirst and reinterpret it around a skillset is a really interesting way of revisiting the codes and the value that those codes have.
Tom:
Yeah.
Mick:
Without a doubt.
Tom:
Sorry Mick, you go.
Mick:
No, I think it’s that thing of the classic beers in Australian history, especially the ones that got such a strong mnemonic that builds so much memory, where brands in the past sort of lost their ways when they’ve gone like, oh, I’ve got to modernize for a younger audience.
And then changed everything. But instead doing exactly what you just described, which is like, no, no, no. Just reframe it slightly for something that’s a little bit more contemporary and relevant. So, that jingle from VB, you can hear it right now.
Darren:
Millions of dollars in media.
Tom:
I reckon there are more great brands that have been ruined by, “We need to change this to appeal to young people.” I’m telling you man. And how many brands have gone back? Cadbury went back to glass and a half; VB went back to “for a hard earned thirst”. I used to have like six of these examples in my head.
So many brands have gone like, “Oh, we just had 10, 15 years in the wilderness because we had to change everything to appeal to the youth.” So, when they should have been doing what Mick is talking about, refresh, don’t redo, refresh it through design, through comms.
Mick:
It’s literally just about, you may have to contemporize some elements of your brand. Like give me a little tidy up. But the best rebrands in the world are the ones where everyone goes, “You didn’t do anything.”
Darren:
But what was it, two years ago, three years ago, we saw all of those luxury prestige brands that had beautiful logo types with glorious serifs and things like that. And they all suddenly ended up as these all clunky Sans serifs. And they all look the same. And now they’re all going back again. Because it was like some design theory of cleanliness for the online world.
Tom:
Yes. It was.
Darren:
Just ate them all up, spat them out in a generic form. Part of the role I guess you guys are doing-
Tom:
Stopping that.
Darren:
Is really sitting between the desire of agencies and designers to do something new that they can own. And marketers wanting to change things because they’re bored with it. And you guys, in many ways are the voice of the consumer that goes, “No, we actually love that.”
Tom:
Yeah.
Mick:
I think it’s that thing like everyone seems to think nostalgia is a trend, but it’s a trend that never goes away. There’s always a new generation who wants to reclaim something that comes from their grandparents’ time or their older sibling’s time.
I remember a talk I was involved with ages ago, but there’s an idea of being able to predict the future. And the way you predict the future is, look back to the generation before you. What were they looking at when they were coming of age? And that’ll be important for this generation.
So, in that respect, it’s like contemporize refreshes and rebranding is about looking at all the things that were important and powerful about that brand. Yes, give them a freshen up so that it looks a bit better and a bit more palatable to a new audience. But you’ve got to hang onto all those codes that made it great in the first place, because there’s a generation gagging to own it again. So, they want their turn.
Tom:
And to build on that too, I mean, one of the things I think about these roles is you need, one of the things that Mick is excellent with is he’s a business-minded creative. And I’m also a business-minded strategist.
And why I’m bringing that up is part of what happened with those logos that you’re talking about when they all went Sans Serif was … and I say this having worked in and around both full-time, but also freelancing with a lot of design firms, you have a lot of designers who actually know nothing about branding and how it actually works. They don’t know about codes. All they know is what looks cool now.
So, they get given the Balenciaga brief and they go, well, Sans serifs are in now and they’re going to make Sans serifs. And it all goes and changes. And so, the reason I’m bringing this up is if you’ve got people in your audience who are client side or procurement side, and they’re thinking about “Would we ever bring connections in-house? Or try and do that sort of a model?”
From a HR perspective or from a personnel perspective, one of the things you’ve got to look for is hybrids. Mick’s a hybrid. I’m a hybrid. Unfortunately, it makes the hiring process a little harder because we’re not common.
Darren:
Well, you don’t fit neatly into a pigeon hole.
Tom:
We don’t, we don’t. But you need-
Mick:
It’s finding annoying people who are interested in absolutely everything. Not tied down.
Tom:
But the trouble is otherwise you’ll end up with a head of design who actually doesn’t know how branding and marketing work and what memory structures are, and what distinctive brand assets are and all that stuff. And you’ll end up fucking changing, pardon my language, you’ll end up changing everything and you’ll be in a big mess.
Darren:
So, it’s interesting on that, both of you have eclectic, typically eclectic careers jumping around from agency side, design studio, client side. People say creativity comes from curiosity. It’s almost like your career is based on being curious and jumping to opportunities that are interesting and maybe a bit challenging.
Tom:
I think, so for me, definitely my whole career has been jumping around doing weird little things, but then I’ve come to realize that in the long run what I thought was kind of verging on mental instability turns out to have been a bit of a superpower. Because once you’ve been all over the place, you can connect dots in ways that other people can’t.
Mick:
No, I think that’s very fair, the curiosity thing. I think the other aspect is I’m a terrible people pleaser. And so, when someone says, “Do you want to crack at this?” I’m like, “Of course. Yes-
Darren:
Well, I’m not sure if that’s a super strength or a weakness. Well, suddenly all your colleagues are going, “Alright, we just have to ask Mick to do something.”
Mick:
I think I’m just fortunate that they were asking me to do things that were actually very interesting at the time. So yes, I do remember, the agencies that I stayed at a long time at, it was you’d have these itchy feet moments and then suddenly the whole agency would shift tack and be like, “We’ve just won a car client,” or “We’ve just entered this tech business.” And you kind of go, “That’s cool. I’ll have a crack at that.” So, you learn so much so fast, so…
Darren:
It is interesting because traditionally and in the past big corporate organizations were not necessarily the place that would be the natural home of that creativity, that curiosity, that eclectic view of the world.
But I think, first of all, we had these sort of innovation trend. Every big organization had a innovations officer. But perhaps these connections into marketing or for marketing is a way of opening that up.
Tom:
I hope so. Look, I’m not sure corporates still are really great places for creativity. There’s a definitely a tension within, I’m not airing any dirty laundry. There’s a tension of bringing something like Connections into a big legacy sales focused organization like Lion.
I mean, until only a few years ago, the marketing department at Lion was called the coloring in department. It was a very sales led organization. So, we are still learning as we go. I touched on this earlier, but I think it’s at Coke where the connections model is 5, 6, 7-years-old, it’s still called the New Model.
So, we’re only a couple of years into this journey at Lion. So, we are figuring it out. But I do think as we all look into the future, and we do see the value of having creativity within corporations that have just facing declining rates of profit and everything, they need the next wave that hopefully things like connections can be mechanisms for changing cultures and allowing different skill sets, different ways of thinking and more create creativity.
It’s such a weird word, creativity. You know what I mean? But bring more creativity in. Yeah.
Darren:
Or just being more open to seeing things differently. Because it’s interesting, and without giving anything away, but now being in the office, in the physical presence, what are the opportunities … obviously you’re interacting with the marketing team, and they’d be very open to it because they’re marketers.
But do you see opportunities of going further into the organization, the sales teams, the operating, the product teams? And having an influence, or at least bringing your perspective into some of the thinking there.
Mick:
I think since my time at Lion, I think quite fortunate that have been working with really powerful advocates in the business who are not only advocating for your career, but actually advocating for you to go and hang out with people you shouldn’t normally hang out with.
So, the last two years, I’ve spent lots of time out at breweries and you get to do sales ride alongs and you get to see the day-to-day of everybody. And you meet supply chain people, you meet procurement people, you meet strategy and finance people.
It has been quite big on making sure that the silos aren’t too siloed. Which is where a lot of Australian corporates can behave. But they are being quite thoughtful in that respect. I think we’ve been pretty lucky. I think that it is opening up a bit.
I think the other thing it kind of helps is that I walk around that building all dressed in head to toe black and instantly everyone goes, “Oh, that’s the design guy.” So, we do get chats…
Darren:
That’s your uniform.
Mick:
…you wouldn’t normally have. It’s sort of helpful, isn’t it?
Darren:
The uniform, it opens doors possibly. “I’d be interested to have a chat.” I had a big grin of my face while you were saying that because There’s a book called A Technique for Producing Ideas by James Webb Young, who was at J. Walter Thompson back in the 40s. Part of the people that ex …
He wrote this technique, and he said one of the important things is immersion. That the creative people in agencies should absolutely immerse themselves into the client’s business. Now, whether it’s the fast pace, it’s the cultural misalignment, it’s the fact that in some organizations, marketing is just seen as the coloring in department. No one wants to let them in, let alone the agency.
I’m being honest from experience. But you’ve just described exactly what he was saying back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, was great creative ideas come from getting in there. What was it was David Ogilvy said, one of the best headlines came from the ad about the sound of the clock in the Rolls Royce.
Tom:
Classic.
Darren:
Yeah. The classic ad. All of these things come from actually getting in and talking to the people on the factory floor.
Tom:
Yeah. I mean, I think that is true. I mean, the way the agency world has evolved, there is no time or money to have one of your account planners. I mean, traditionally that was done by designers and account planners.
No one can afford to have a planner go out and spend five days at a brewery now. That’s just not the way the agency — they need them on multiple accounts. I’ve been agency side too. We all know how it works. You’re officially retained-
Darren:
Well, you bill on the hours. But they’re sitting in there going, “Hurry up, hurry up.”
Tom:
And we’ve tried to design some processes, particularly when we’re doing advertising to allow to say, we need a week where the think about creatives and planners get to go to Queensland and go and do this.
We’ve tried to build that in wherever we can, because that’s how you get the best work. But the reality is, on the day to day, we can’t get that done all the time. And that is, we’re actually being in-house and knowing about how the supply chain works and when an agency comes back and goes, we can change the die cut on the label.
And like, no, you can’t. That’s a $250,000 fit out in the factory. Do you know what I mean? Just those little things that I do think that where having a couple of traditional creative people that are immersed does speed things up for sure.
Darren:
Yeah. Look, I’ll admit that James Webb Young was working in a time where agencies were making 20% on all media. So, they probably weren’t worried about the cost. But it’s a pity, isn’t it? But in a way, you are creating that opportunity in the roles that you have.
Mick:
Yes. I think theres an example that I spoke before about too. So, one of the parts of the project in that refresh was about immersing all the agencies involved at the brewery, meet the brewers, come and understand, sit in there and listen to the noise on the canning lines and the bottling lines and understand how-
Tom:
Always think about all of … keep going, keep going.
Mick:
But in that process is this weird creative who’s looking after the Head of Design who sits there and goes like, “Oh, there’s all these streets and rails and things. Imagine if you rode a skateboard in here.”
So, literally 12 months later we did the partnership with a skateboard company called Pass~Port. Which turned into a really fun exercise that happened at the end of last year, trying to just do something a little viral, a little social focused and so also create a piece of merch that was designed just for our brewers to say, we’ve done this big rebrand.
Here’s something to celebrate you at the same time, how cool are you guys. We’ve got this great skateboard company to come and make you special work jackets just for you. No one else is allowed to have them. You can’t get ahold of them. It’s only if you work for Tooheys. But it just came about because you did the tours, you spent the time.
Darren:
So, one of the things I love about that story, apart from the outcome, is the fact that it reinforces that creative ideas come down to an individual being exposed to something that they’re curious about and generating an idea.
Because one of the things that I think works against it especially in big corporate organizations is group thinking. This idea that we all have to get together and nut out the idea. And yet the best creative and the best strategic thinking can come from a multitude of conversations in a group session. But the idea almost invariably is an individual sitting there going, “I wonder.”
Tom:
Totally. Yeah. I mean, I hate brainstorms, for this very reason I was going, “Ah, this could be an hour and a half of post-it notes and markers and nothing really.” I think I’ve probably been what, 26, 25, 26 years. I think I’ve probably been in two brainstorms in a quarter of a century where a real fresh idea came out and it was always from some individual. Brief people leave them alone. Let them come back.
Darren:
And design. Especially because we’ve all seen that cartoon about when a committee designs a swing for kids, and it’s something that never works, but at least it’s safe.
Mick:
Yes, yes. That’s it. I’m a little contrarian in that respect. I do sort of enjoy stealing from the school of improv comedy, the school of “yes and…”, and having the group in a space that is willing to do yes and, things can get bigger and better and more exciting. But that takes a lot of effort to educate a group like that.
And I think that’s where studio culture and trying to infect that studio culture mentality into a business is really quite powerful. We’re yet to get to success at Lion, but I have seen grassroots and got little shoots, green shoots happening here and there. I think we have a really good group of people up in our Ventures group who are kind of living and breathing a bit of that and seeing some really exciting things starting to go there.
Tom:
That’s a fair comment because your experience of workshop coming from a design background is where it’s so work focused. As a planner, a lot of my workshops have actually just been politics. I mean, no serious bringing a group of stakeholders along a journey.
Darren:
So, at the end of it, they all seem-
Tom:
They all think it’s their idea and it all gets signed off. Yeah.
Darren:
But you’re right. But still the starting point is someone saying, “What about this?” And then everyone else goes, “Yes, and this and this and this.” But it takes trust. It takes openness, transparency, the need to be vulnerable. This is why writing teams, comedy teams, designers, working teams because you have that trust.
Mick:
Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes.
Darren:
And I think people talk a lot about building trust. Do you see that as part of your role as well? I imagine, in some ways you’re not just translating, you’re actually building confidence and trust both with the agency, this is where the marketers are at and we need to work with that, but also taking what the agency says and giving it context so that people feel more confident.
Mick:
Yeah. I think that’s definitely true. I think one of the beautiful things that I’ve benefited from is that having a design partner, we’ve been so open to that. And they’re excited to have those moments with brand marketers as well as say, just me. They don’t just sit there and go, “We only trust Mick. He’ll look after us.”
It’s more like, “Mick, has advocated for these guys. Let’s go all in on this together and do it together.” And great results have come from that. There’s a genuine collaboration and also a lot of sort of porousness between both businesses.
And I think there’s really good teams at Thinkerbell that do that too. There’s genuine moments of like this porous exchange between both businesses when that trust has really quite developed. I think Tom’s worked his bum off just trying to make sure both brand groups and both offices of Thinkerbell feel the same way about that. We genuinely see benefit when that happens.
Tom:
Yeah. It’s been hard because we haven’t been able to get down to Melbourne as much as we’d like to in the last little period of time.
Darren:
It does require that face to face, doesn’t it?
Tom:
It really does.
Darren:
Because the little face on the screen is not as engaging as we’re sitting in this room having this conversation, it would be very different online.
Tom:
Totally. And just to build on the trust thing, I feel like Mick, and I now have enough runs on the board. I think trust has to be earned, you know what I mean? And I think we’ve got a couple of internal things where when we’ve been allowed to do our thing and not had a trillion stakeholders with us in the bloody river, the work has been better than when we’ve had the others.
So, I think, we’re earning trust both with our partners, but particularly internally. It’s like, let Connections do their thing and it does get better, where we’ve got the internal resistance to like, no, I want to do it the way it was before connections exist. That’s where we get the-
Darren:
Well, because there’s a control that comes with that. And with control is security. Because it can only ever be as good as I am. And what’s the alternative? I give up control, therefore someone else has input and control, but I’m now vulnerable.
Tom:
Yeah, totally.
Darren:
Which is where you talk about trust being earned. I think if you create the right environment, though trust can be given as a gift.
Mick:
That’s interesting.
Tom:
Yeah. That’s a great way to think about that.
Mick:
Hadn’t thought about that.
Darren:
It’s a, “Here’s the gift. I’m trusting you.” Now I need you to not let me down and deliver on the gift that I’ve given you, because believe me, you break that — because I always worry about trust being earned because it could take years. Some people just aren’t very trusted.
Tom:
That’s true. That’s very true. And the people who hired us – Ed Stening and Anubha – very much said to us: “We’ve hired you as experts. Here is the trust. Now go deliver.”
Darren:
And that’s incredibly powerful, when someone does that upfront.
Tom:
Both fantastic bosses.
Darren:
What I love about this conversation is that people always talk about what’s the value I’m getting? But when you create that environment, when you create the opportunities for people to be better than they thought they could be on their own by working in that environment, no amount of money can actually necessarily create that.
You pay people for doing their job, but then they can produce something that’s even better. I always think the procurement process of, well, what’s the cost per hour? It’s not about the cost per hour.
It’s about the value that all of those people actually create at the end of the day. And all I’m hearing here is that a lot of what you’re doing is facilitating the delivery of that value that’s almost inherent in the organizations that you’re working with.
Tom:
Yeah. I think when we’re doing our best, I think we’re helping to create what you’re describing, which is an environment in which all that magic can take place. And I think when we’ve done our job … I’m repeating myself, when we’ve done our jobs the best, that’s what’s happening. Sometimes it’s not possible, but we do our best.
Darren:
Look. That’s probably a good place to finish because we’ve run out of time. Really appreciate you both making time and coming and having a chat. Tom and Mick, great work and looking forward to seeing what you guys can do.
Tom:
Thank you. It’s been great to chat with you.
Darren:
I have got a question, and it actually came from my six-year-old son. I was drinking some Castlemaine XXXX and he said, “Why is it called XXXX?” And I said, “It’s because Queenslanders can’t spell beer.” Is that true?