Hick Hunter is the CEO, ECD and co-founder of Paper Moose, a purpose-driven independent agency where strategy, creative ideas, and specialist expertise drives positive change for brands, communities and the environment. They are also a certified B-Corp.
The advertising industry is incredibly competitive, with agencies competing for a share of business, a share of advertiser budgets, and a share of the talent in the marketplace. In the past few years, we have noticed a rise in the number of independent agencies and their ability to compete with the larger network agencies.
One of the ways they are doing this is by having a strong and articulated purpose or set of values. It is not only differentiating them from the competition with advertisers, it is also a clear strategy for attracting talent. Nick shares this approach they have implemented over the past 13 years in building their agency, Paper Moose.
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“B Corp has a great structure and framework in actually measuring your business impact. And you can sort of see, “Oh, well, here’s where we’re not doing so well and where we can improve.”
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, Founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
The advertising industry’s incredibly competitive with agencies competing for share of business, a share of an advertiser’s budget, and a share of the talent in the marketplace. But in the last few years, we’ve noticed a rise in not just the number of independent agencies, but also, their ability to compete with the larger network agencies.
One of the ways they’re doing this is by having a strong and clearly articulated purpose or set of values. It not only differentiates them from the competition with advertisers, but it also offers a clear strategy for attracting talent.
One agency that’s done this very well is Paper Moose, a purpose-driven, independent agency with strategy, creative ideas, and specialist expertise to drive positive change for brands, communities, and the environment. And they’re also a certified B Corp.
To discuss this approach, please welcome to Managing Marketing Podcast, the CEO, ECD and Co-Founder of Paper Moose, Nick Hunter.
Hi, Nick.
Nick:
Hi, Darren. Lovely to be here.
Darren:
Interesting, those acronyms in there: CEO, ECD — are you also the coffee maker and the director of good humor and joy?
Nick:
A hundred percent. I mean, as a startup, you always have to wear many hats. And over the last sort of 13 years, I’ve pretty much existed in one or many of the roles within the business. So, yeah.
Darren:
Well, my advertising career, I went from the fifth largest agency, I think it was in Melbourne, to the 50th largest agency, was quite a significant jump. And one of the things that I really appreciated in a much smaller agency was the fact that you had the opportunity to do many different roles. And I think that it’s so important because that way, you learn the breadth of operations, not just the depth in your particular area.
Nick:
And I think the difference is I look for capabilities rather than focusing on titles. A lot of our people are multi-disciplinary, creative talents. And that always works much better in a business like us. If you’re super specialized in just one thing, it’s kind of difficult to … yeah, it’s not super usable in the size of business that we have.
Darren:
Now, Nick, this is your first agency, isn’t it? You came from acting and you set up an advertising agency, and I’m really fascinated why, because every time someone says to me, “I’m starting an agency,” I go, “Yeah, of course. That’s just what the world needs is another advertising agency.”
What was the motivation? What was the sort of the thinking or the opportunity that presented itself to start Paper Moose?
Nick:
Look, it’s always been an attempt at more control over being able to be creative and commercially viable, really. I started as an actor at the whims of so many different stakeholders. So, we started Paper Moose originally as a production house to create longform entertainment, short films, TV, all of that kind of thing.
And really, fell into advertising as this incredible way to make art and get paid for it. And then it kind of just grew out of that. And suddenly, we realized the power of advertising as a medium to do good or bad, and that’s kind of where it really took hold.
And so, that’s been sort of our focus, is using advertising as a force of good, and building off those principles and working with clients that are nudging the world to a better place. And we want to sort of create a world where those organizations reign supreme.
Darren:
So, first of all, I’ve just realized that you started a trend. Because Ryan Reynolds and all the other actors have jumped on board starting their own agency. Do you feel like phoning them and saying, “Thanks for …”
Nick:
I was here first.
Darren:
Copying is the highest form of flattery, so, you know.
Nick:
Unfortunately, I wish I had the profile of Ryan, otherwise, our acceleration in growth would’ve happened a lot faster, I think.
Darren:
And then the second thing is the idea that advertising can be a force for good and evil, or good and bad, is an interesting one because for a long time, I don’t think anyone ever thought about it.
Nick:
I mean, I’m not a hundred percent sure because we are a little bit of an outsider in that way. And we apply storytelling and creativity into solving business problems. And we sort of focus in on the businesses that we choose to work with, being ones that we deem kind of good organizations and doing better for the planet.
And I guess, like the latest referendum is a great example of advertising and storytelling being used in bad ways. And the power that that can have, and destructive outcomes.
Darren:
So, concepts like good and bad come down to personal values and ethics, don’t they?
Nick:
They do.
Darren:
Because there’s the famous quote, “One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist.” It’s a matter of perspective. So, I guess, has it come down to defining good and bad based on you and your co-founders sets of values, or is there something bigger or broader than that?
Nick:
I mean, yes, you’re absolutely right, it’s deeply personal. And I run a podcast called The Mucky Middle, which is all about finding the balance between being a purpose-driven organization and commercially successful.
And I guess it is understanding what is your theory of change. I believe that commercial businesses are the best vehicle we have at our disposal to make positive change in the world. And also, the larger the organization, the larger impact that we can have.
So, I guess, it’s understanding what are the intentions of that organization and what are their aspirations, and how can we help accelerate those things and make them commercially successful while doing good. Because obviously, doing good while not being commercially successful doesn’t lead to any kind of good outcome for anyone.
Darren:
Well, it is an interesting conundrum, but one that I think was beautifully answered in the quote that, “Breathing is to humans what profit is to business,” you don’t live to breathe. And just as businesses don’t just make profit, there’s opportunities beyond that to give you a reason to run a business.
And I know, because next year, it’ll be 24 years for me running TrinityP3, 13 years at Paper Moose — the motivation that gets you up in the morning, I imagine isn’t to make a profit. Although, you do need to make a profit to have something to get up to every morning.
Nick:
That’s right. If I wanted to make boundless money, then I’d probably do something different, or do it differently, but I guess it is.
And just going back to the ethics question of — so we have an ethical charter. There are certain things that we will not work with in like gambling, fossil fuels, anything to do with sort of fast finance or anything that you can see that there is a clear harmful outcome with the product.
Darren:
And what about some of the emerging ones such as … did you say high sugar foods or fast foods, soft drinks, particularly the sugary types? Because it’s an interesting … to your point about the Mucky Muddle, where do you draw that line? And you can’t really draw a line forever, can you? Because things change.
Nick:
No, that’s right. I mean, so we just have a hard line in the sand on fossil fuels and gambling and fast finance, and then everything else that might be a little bit mucky, it will kind of have a discussion, talk about what are the company’s personal … with all of our staff and talk about, do we have issues with these? Here are the pros, here are the cons. Here are the intentions of their environmental standards and where they’re pushing the business.
Do they have an intention to sort of move towards a better product that is going to be better to the health of their consumers? Or if there is just a total void of, I guess, good intention, then that would be a questionable choice for us for sure.
Darren:
Because I worked for a number of agencies where the ethical standard was if it’s legal to sell, then they’d work on it. And that included everything — at the time, included tobacco, alcohol, opium, whatever.
Nick:
I mean, we look at it as what is your license to operate, and in very much in that kind of-
Darren:
The social license, you mean.
Nick:
Yeah, what is the social license. And I guess, what is the unintended bad effects of the business? And can we help them mitigate those by building purpose into their business? And obviously, it’s easier with businesses that are startups and new businesses.
Because you can help them build those foundations in the business from the ground up, like what we did with felix mobile, with TPG Telecom. But with older legacy businesses, it is more difficult. And I can understand the struggles that they face in trying to retrofit things into their business model, and talk about those things if they want to talk about it.
Darren:
Because when we talk about businesses based on doing good and having ethical standards, they’re almost always ones where the founders have set those standards. Whether it was the original Ben & Jerry’s, and it’s always the same big corporations that come up.
But it’s an interesting concept, and I think Unilever have tried to negotiate that. But even they have found that not every brand is necessarily up for having a strong defined purpose. Sometimes they just exist because the product fulfills a need, rather than having a higher purpose than that.
Nick:
And I think that’s where you defined, “Is this something that I need to talk about to the consumer?” Like the mayonnaise example is a good example of that, of like no one necessarily cares about that.
They can still do good behind the scenes and maybe solve some of their problematic supply chain issues or whatever that might be. But whether you need to communicate that to the end consumer is something different.
Darren:
Well, I think that whole of life ownership of a product is becoming increasingly important. The environmental considerations are not just about the climate crisis, that more and more particularly manufacturers are starting to look at owning the product.
Nick:
I think Polestar is going for their manufacturing to be zero carbon neutral in their manufacturing process by 2030. That’s incredibly ambitious when you think about the manufacturing of the car and everything that would go into that.
And you have those outliers that are really leading the way in all of these processes and looking at that circular economy and how can we … Koskela, a furniture company that we’re talking to at the moment, they’re really interesting in their ambitions in changing business models and changing the way that we consume as a society, and designing solutions to sort of fit a future that sort of benefits all.
Darren:
It’d be interesting to know whether any of that zero emissions comes from offsetting. Because I think one of the things that is clouding the whole issue is where organizations are going. We have net zero outputs, but then you read the fine print, and it’s just because they’re pouring a whole lot of money into offsetting or carbon credits or whatever.
Nick:
And I think we’ll see a lot more tighter communication around that specific issue because the offsetting is like that’s your bare minimum. That’s where I guess you need to start, and then you actually need to figure out how to actually not need to offset, but actually, make your entire system carbon neutral or ideally carbon negative.
Darren:
Well, because carbon’s a good measure of activity, and if you can reduce the carbon, you’re actually reducing waste, aren’t you?
Nick:
Yeah, that’s right. And you’re right, the whole carbon market is a bit of opaque. And there’s a lot of distrust in it as well in the offsetting space.
Darren:
Sorry, Nick. But obviously, when you are starting the agency and this idea of based on doing good, we can use our skills and talents to do good. One of the things would be finding a way of actually substantiating or adding meaning to that. I’d imagine that’s where going for B Corp certification would’ve been an important consideration. Was that pretty much the thinking or …?
Nick:
It was basically, because we were trying to analyze what our positive impact was, and it was really hard to actually measure the impact of the good things that we were doing. And B Corp has a great structure and framework in actually measuring your business impact. And you can sort of see, “Oh, well, here’s where we’re not doing so well and where we can improve.”
So, that was actually the reason that we did it, was so that it gave us that framework and ability to sort of measure our positive impact on the world. But I guess the unintended effects of that is, it’s a good trust stamp that our values are deeply like all the way to our company constitution, that we exist for all stakeholders not just the shareholders. I think from an employee value proposition, that has been super transformational for us.
Darren:
Now, I’ve heard a number of people that have gone through the process say that it’s incredibly rigorous and resource and time-consuming. How long did it take you from making that decision to getting certification initially?
Nick:
It took us about two and a half years to go through all of — because it’s mountains of spreadsheets, and basically, actually documenting all of the processes that we already had, but probably hadn’t documented. And looking at where we could improve and how we could sort of actually measure a lot of the things that we were doing. So, yeah, it took two and a half years.
Josh, my co-founder, led the charge on it, fortunately, because he loves spreadsheets more than I do. He’s written a funny article on it of all the reasons not to become a B Corp. But obviously, the flip of it is you should become a B Corp.
Darren:
Yeah, of course.
Nick:
But yeah, and you’d want it to be rigorous. You don’t want just anyone to be able to walk in without substantiating some of the issues. And there’s been a lot of discussion recently around Havas’s B Corp standards in the UK and the shell account and how-
Darren:
I was going to raise that with you separately, but just getting back to that process, I imagine it was also one that the employees could get involved in as well. It wasn’t just senior management doing this, there’s an opportunity to engage your employees in this process, isn’t there?
Nick:
That’s right. Because if you imagine that each project is like 0.1 or 0.2 of a point and you have to get above, I think 80 points I think it is. So, there’s millions of different projects that you can sort of get people on board and task them with, and then they have ownership of where the business is going, and sort of some of the focuses in sustainability, or social good. But oh, where was I? My thought was going with that.
But yeah, so it’s a really good way of engaging employees as well. I’ve seen a few people outsource the application itself to consultants, which I think is a funny way to do it because you’re not really embedding a lot of the change in the business if you do that. Whereas, if you get everyone involved and a part of that sort of transformation and detailed analysis of the business, then you have total buy-in.
Darren:
Because the types of questions and requirements they have actually get the team thinking about, “What are the implications of their day-to-day behaviors?” The things that in many cases, people just do instinctively suddenly have consequences or there’s an impact associated with it. And that would become a very powerful transformation driver.
Nick:
A hundred percent. I mean, if you look at even our film shoots, because we do a lot of production because we’re sort of a hybrid in creative and production model, that has sort of transformed a lot of the way that we … because production shoots are very wasteful in terms of the amount of plastic and the type of food that you serve and all of that kind of thing.
So, we’ve gone through all of our processes to make them as carbon neutral as possible. But it’s a really hard thing to sort of remove plastic from a film shoot, it’s just very hard.
Darren:
And the other thing is that a lot of people think you get certified, and then that’s the end of the process, but there’s actually a constant process of recertification, isn’t there? It’s not a set and forget.
Nick:
No. And I think the process is about to become a little bit more rigorous as well. So, we’re about to go through recert now, and you could basically over index in one area, and be less good in sort of one of the other areas. So, now you have to be sort of good across all of the three sort of aspects.
Darren:
There’s a minimum standard in every area.
Nick:
That’s right. So, you might be really good in environment, but less good in governance or something like that. So, yeah, you have to be great across all of those things.
Darren:
Well, that opens up another area. And one of the things that brought Paper Moose and yourself to my attention is all of the things that you’ve been doing for the broader advertising industry around creative and psychological safety-
Nick:
Mental health.
Darren:
Gender equality, mental health. So, that’s obviously sits within the sort of ethical standards or the values that you have bringing to the community, being in this case, the advertising community.
Nick:
And that initiative like the Drop the Shade Initiative, which is evolving into its next creative version at the moment, that came from the team and from the people, and we very much encourage our staff to … if they see something that is problematic in our industry or in something that we’re doing in our processes or something that they’re empowered to actually make that change and bring it to us and we’ll support it and fuel it, and that becomes part of their day-to-day.
So, Jeremy, our creative director has very much been spearheading that project because we saw the damage it was doing to our staff and people that maybe didn’t have as thick skin as an ex actor, and in a publication that should be about celebrating the work and sure, criticizing it, but understanding how to, I guess, communicate criticism and in terms of growth and making the industry better.
Darren:
There’s different types of criticism, we’re talking about the moderated commentary section of campaign brief. Which sometimes, has some very witty and quite positive feedback for people which is not a bad thing, but has increasingly become a place for a whole lot of trolls to just vent, I guess their frustration, anger at their lack of success in life. So, they take it out on anyone else that seems to be doing something.
Nick:
I mean, it’s become like a four-chain kind of toxic environment that no one should sort of go into. So, we’ve totally boycotted the publication and are doing what we can to try and make change in that space and try and persuade them. Because it’s a simple change, all they need to remove is the anonymity around the comments and that would solve it.
Darren:
Or just moderate them.
Nick:
Yes, or just moderate them, which should be the basic hygiene factor for any kind of platform like that.
Darren:
No, it’s an interesting one. Now, you mentioned it, and I want to come back to it, and that is the … because the value of any certification system is the standard that they hold to. And I think everyone was pleasantly surprised when Havas was given B Corp certification.
And now there’s a whole lot of controversy because they’ve taken on a fossil fuel client as a client, and have justified it with the argument that this gives them the opportunity of helping to influence the client’s behavior from the inside of the tent, rather than from being on the outside and refusing to work with them.
I think I’ve summed that up reasonably diplomatically.
Nick:
You have. I mean, for me, there is gray and then there is black and white, and Shell has shown zero intention of — they have missed all of their self-imposed deadlines to shift the business. There doesn’t seem to be any kind of intention for them to transition rapidly to a green energy future.
So, the idea that Havas could justify that being inside the tent could help in that case. Let’s be real, and it’s also the media side of it, so they don’t even have control over the communication-
Darren:
The messaging.
Nick:
The messaging, yeah. You’re just distributing an agency’s message, so you’re distributing propaganda and propping up a problematic industry. So, for me, and for the business, that’s a pretty clear cut and dry case of they shouldn’t have B Corp status. And it does because I think it brings that brand of B Corp down by businesses doing that.
So, it’s hard because you do want massive businesses like Unilever and organizations to have B Corp status, but if the intention is to use it as a greenwashing or-
Darren:
A screen while I get on with the dirty business of making money behind the scenes at any cost.
Nick:
Yeah. And I think also being justified by splitting up the businesses under different entities under the same brand name, but it still has that. So, we talk to B Corp a lot and we have got quite a close relationship with B Labs in Australia, and they’re engaging and figuring out how to navigate this particular situation.
And situations like this will continue to come up because the intention of B Corp is that hopefully, the B Corp status becomes kind of a hygiene factor in that everyone is a B Corp. And so, that will require difficult conversations, and navigating this mucky metal.
Darren:
I think the thing is that a lot of the communications are actually quite dangerous and there was a BP ad that basically proposed that they were a hundred percent carbon neutral. Now, I’m not sure how a fossil fuel could be a hundred percent carbon neutral.
I’m also not sure how any agency or any creative person could in good faith write that. Even based on if you offset a hundred percent of the carbon from that liter or gallon of petrol that was being sold, that justifies it as being carbon neutral.
Nick:
I mean, some of the breaches — and fortunately, the ACCC is cracking down on a lot of those things. But yeah, some of them are just outrageous in what they’re saying and trying to communicate to the public, it’s just crazy.
Darren:
And the other danger is that it builds up cynicism in the general public, because with all this greenwashing that they start not believing any of it so that the companies that are doing something and wanting to get recognition for it are then being ignored because it gets written off as just more greenwashing.
Nick:
Or you have this green hushing where companies that are doing great things are concerned that it might be perceived as greenwashing. And so, they’re concerned around how to navigate.
So, we do a lot of work in helping companies navigate, what are they doing in this world and how can we help communicate that? Should they communicate it? Does their customer actually care? Should they just do good in secret? And that’s the best thing. So, helping companies navigate that in this particular climate is really interesting.
Darren:
One of the things you said earlier, Nick, was that it’s much easier for startups. From the perspective of the companies you’ve worked with (and you don’t have to name any of them), do you find most of them come to you with a clear set of values or at least a purpose in mind?
Or is some of the work that you’re doing at Paper Moose is helping them really define what that purpose is, and what that actually means for their business?
Nick:
Yeah, we do a lot of work in that space of helping, I guess, we call branding from the inside out where we build their mission, vision, purpose, or help refine that, if it’s an older business and trying to create purpose in the heart of a business that has existed for hundreds of years, say.
What is the unintended ill effect that they do? How could we mitigate those things by doing a really interesting project that offsets that in real terms, and then potentially, talk about it.
Darren:
Do you find most of the focus is on environment or is increasingly the full range of corporate social responsibility, including gender equality, diversity, and inclusion? Are these more and more on the agenda for the companies you’re working with?
Nick:
Yeah, I think we’ve been probably over indexing in sustainability because I guess the climate crisis, but I think we are going to see as different businesses navigate the idea of purpose and what the business is authentically connected to. We’ll see a much more diversity in that space. And we’re already seeing that a little bit, but at the moment is very focused on sustainability.
Darren:
And I think sustainability is because it seems to have a higher visibility generally. It’s a very of the moment because of the crisis. There’s a deadline, there’s 2030, and there’s 2050. Whereas many of the other issues, and most of them arise from the United Nations sustainability goals. These have then moved through from the UN to the various countries.
Governments are putting in legislation around things like the Modern Slavery Act and gender equality and the like. And we’re seeing that particularly here in Australia. But the environment and the climate crisis seems to get an inordinate amount of focus, whereas there’s so many other issues that need to be addressed as well.
Nick:
And we did a lot of thinking on this with our buy-one-give-one initiative where we focus on giving time and resources to organizations that are helping decarbonize the planet, specifically because a lot of the other issues come out of knock-on effects of climate change. So, that’s kind of why we focused on it as well as a business.
But yeah, I think you’re going to start seeing a lot of changes around focusing on specific issues that they can have control with. But also, a lot of commercial businesses, a lot of the problems that they’re unintendedly creating will generally be around sustainability issues. And what resources are they using to give you said product, and how can they sort of reduce their impact on the environment by giving you the product.
Darren:
Do you find with this focus that marketers or corporate strategists or procurement seem to have more focus or interest in the work that you do, or the C-suite?
Nick:
It’s quite across the board. I guess, it’s people that are switched on to … and I guess a little bit deeper in the space, but we’re definitely seeing a lot of interest from procurement. Massive companies now have specific targets to reduce their scope 3 emissions. So, bringing on a B Corp can help them do that as sort of shorthand.
So, I think we’re going to see a demand in procurement itself, but I think marketers that understand their product and potentially, see an opportunity in pulling another lever in the purpose space in terms of differentiation, then they’re pretty savvy to it and will approach us in that way. But also, we have lots of businesses that isn’t their focus, and they just want to do great effective creative, and that’s cool too.
Darren:
Oh, look, the reason I raised it is that we’ve noticed a big change in procurement focus in the last five years, probably a little longer from before the pandemic. And that’s the move … there’s still a cost control component.
But it’s interesting how most of these issues around sustainability, diversity, and inclusion and the Modern Slavery Act and so on and so forth are very much driven by procurement under risk mitigation.
Nick:
A hundred percent.
Darren:
And so, this is why it’s top of the agenda. And the reason I raised it is I’ve also had conversations with a handful of marketers that go particularly for sustainability. They go, “My job is to drive consumption. If I’m driving consumption, how do I reconcile that with sustainability if the organization is not producing a sustainable product or service?”
Nick:
That is a tricky conundrum.
Darren:
It’s an interesting conundrum. It’s an interesting one. Because if your job is to drive consumption, then-
Nick:
Which is essentially what we do in advertising.
Darren:
And it’s an interesting conundrum to come to terms with.
Nick:
Particularly, if the rest of the business is not on board and focused on making the product more sustainable, that is a difficult issue to handle.
Darren:
Well, I think the solution to that will have to be for another day, because unfortunately, time’s got away from us.
Nick Hunter, I’ve really appreciated you making time and sharing with us the process that you’ve gone with Paper Moose to become a successful and flourishing B Corp agency in the Australian marketplace.
Nick:
Absolute pleasure, Darren. Thank you so much for having me.
Darren:
And look, I’ve got a question before you go, and that is, as a pitch consultant, I came to you with any category of advertiser, of the three that you named that you won’t work on, for the right amount of money, is there one you’d actually accept?
