Mike Rebelo is the CEO of Publicis Groupe Australia and New Zealand. For almost a decade, he has been working on and working with an integrated agency model, sharing the lessons learned along the way.
With digital media and technology, we saw the rise of specialist agencies, then a trend back to the generalists, better known as the one-stop shop. But more recently, we are witnessing the rise of the integrated agency offering. This offering comes in many shapes and sizes.
But no matter the model, there were always challenges and issues with making it live up to the promised delivery, from issues with attracting and keeping talent to behind-the-scenes in-fighting breaking out. Mike talks about the problems and opportunities of the various integrated agency models.
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This business has radically changed in five years. You’ll be very easily left behind if you don’t start to want to adapt, be curious, learn new things, and be open to different ways of working.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of Trinity P3 Marketing Management consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
In advertising, we’ve seen the rise of the specialist agencies, the trend back to the generalist, better known as the one-stop shop. But more recently, we’re witnessing the rise of the integrated agency offering.
This offering comes in many shapes and sizes. For some networks and holding companies, it’s creating a bespoke agency for a client by drawing down the resources from across the network. For others, it is designing a cross-agency, cross-functional team to meet the client’s needs.
But no matter the model, there are always challenges and issues with making it live up to the promised delivery, from issues with attracting and keeping talent to behind-the-scenes infighting breaking out.
But my guest today has been working on and working with an integrated agency model for almost a decade and is here to share the lessons learned along the way.
Please welcome to Managing Marketing, the CEO of Publicis Groupe, Australia and New Zealand. Mike Rebelo. Welcome, Mike.
Mike:
Thanks, Darren. Looking forward to being part of the chat today. It sounds like an interesting topic, and one that I’ve got a bit of experience in.
Darren:
Well, you do have a bit of experience and it’s an interesting one because I get asked a lot by journalists particularly, and some marketers, should I go for the best of breed and manage a … what do they call it, a village? Or should I try and get it all in one package? And what’s the best for me?
And of course, my answer is, well, it depends because I’m a consultant. There’s never a straight answer.
But it’s not that simple, is it? It’s not just a dichotomy of do I go village or integrated, is it?
Mike:
No, it’s not. And I think you’re absolutely right. Everything comes back down to the client. And even within the Publicis Groupe, we have a broad church of different types of agencies. Everything from creative, to media, to data, to CX specialists, to business consultancy practices, and digital transformation consultancies.
And even with that breadth and depth of agency capabilities, we design everything to suit the actual needs of a particular client. There’s no one-size-fits-all. We don’t always try and build an end-to-end capability for a client, because sometimes they just need specialists and have an existing village or ecosystem or partners that we can work with.
So, it always comes down to what that client is looking for. We have seen a trend where clients are looking for more consolidation, and not just because of the efficiency that brings, but because of the integration, the alignment and the focus that brings.
Also, it takes a lot of the work off the table for a client in terms of managing a village. Because it’s like the old saying, ‘it takes a village to raise a baby’. It’s the same here, you need someone…
Darren:
To raise a brand.
Mike:
To raise a village. To manage the village. So, there is no one-size-fits-all. I think what we inherently try and do is create flexibility. Create modularity for a client, so they can actually use it. My kind of analogy is it’s like a graphic equalizer because every client is different. They might want the bass and the treble set at different levels, depending upon the track, depending upon the album, depending on the genre of music.
So, that’s what we try and provide clients here, or potential clients. That graphic equalizer of marketing transformation capabilities. And they can set that to what they see as the right settings for their challenges.
Darren:
Because it is about adaptability, isn’t it? Every client not only has different needs at the point of engaging the agency, but over time you notice how clients change their needs. And what they’re really looking for is a partner that can adapt to that. It’s not a set and forget anymore in marketing, is it?
Mike:
I think one of the biggest things that we’ve learned, Publicis and myself personally over probably the last five or six years, is the need to build the adaptive quotient in your muscle memory – in your mindset.
And for a long time, we’ve look at things like EQ and IQ as really important. I think what’s making and building the more progressive marketer/agency person these days is the ability to be quite adaptive.
And for creative people at heart, we can sometimes be the most reluctant to change, which is quite ironic. But I think building that activity is really important, particularly when you look at the needs of a client and how that’s changing – not just year to year, but within the cycle of a year as well.
A lot of the time we have a conversation around where a client should prioritise. In, I call it, the strategic funnel dilemma, where should we be building brand awareness? Desire, bringing them into the system, or should we drive in the performance and the conversion at the bottom of the funnel?
Sometimes that can change in a month. And I think what you need to be able to provide clients these days is the flexibility to do that – to basically operate on a dime, be quite adaptive, and to change tact. As the results need to either ramp up or business conditions change or competitive activity changes, we need to be giving clients the ability to do that.
And that’s hard today, particularly when you’re talking about the scale of choices and the scale of assets and activity a client needs to basically have ready to go. So, I think that’s the inherent advantage of Publicis, to provide that for a client.
Darren:
Well, Publicis Groupe Australia and New Zealand, which you’re the head of, the leader of, has built a really impressive portfolio of very diverse businesses. You’ve got some — and you alluded to it a minute ago, you’ve got everything from business consulting through to high-end production and everything in between.
It must be interesting being able to almost know or predict or make sure you’ve got all the bases covered in some ways, is it?
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
Because it wouldn’t just happen organically, would it?
Mike:
No. Look, I think it’s been a journey. And certainly, the shape of our organisation today and the capabilities that sit within that are very different to what it was 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe even three years ago.
That’s been a journey that I’ve enjoyed being part with Publicis. Because clients, particularly CMOs, they’ve got a lot of choices to make, a lot of challenges to solve and, in an environment where budgets are always under pressure, how do they direct those resources to drive the best outcome?
So, we have tried to make our organisational design one that allows them to be able to cater to all those needs and be quite flexible in its approach.
I guess we’ve always had the core of a marketing transformation capability set in terms of great creative agencies and media agencies, and what we’ve been doing through acquisition globally and locally is building out around that.
The biggest acquisition we made was in 2014, which was Sapient, which gave us a whole new era of capability in digital transformation. And that was quite progressive at the time. We were the first holding company, and still are, to have that in a communications holding company.
So, that was quite progressive and looking to the future. Since then, we’ve also acquired Epsilon because we saw the real need for data. Especially in the conversation around the ‘Cookieless World’, which still hasn’t arrived yet, and data privacy.
So, the acquisition of Epsilon was really critical to us, because they do have a first party core ID platform. We knew that was going to become more important to clients.
Locally, we’ve seen the rise of e-commerce. Hence, we made the acquisition of a company called Balance about three years ago. And we’ve seen the dramatic change in consumer behaviour.
So, over the last three or four years we’ve been really building out our capabilities because they need to be more connected. I think that’s the key to this for clients, to be able to operate quite seamlessly across the customer experience.
Darren:
So, going back to your equalizer metaphor, how many channels do you need? Because I could imagine you could end up with the 64-channel or 128-channel equalizer. Which would just be incredibly complex in its own right-
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
Trying to manage all that. But then if you go too narrow, there’s going to be lots of gaps that appear.
Mike:
Yeah, sure.
Darren:
What’s the sort of thinking either on a personal level as a management team, as to where you need to be, how many channels do you need at your disposal so that you fulfil the needs of most of your clients?
Mike:
Look, I think right now we would say that we are fairly satisfied with the level of options and capabilities we have to fulfil the different channel needs that a client may have. Why we’ve got more of some than others is because we still believe that brands are really important. So, we have multiple creative agencies, and multiple media agencies, and that’s largely because we have to manage client conflict and exclusivities.
But I think, right now, to be able to develop big brand ideas, creative experiences and understand the media framework – where to deploy those with a level of data intelligence – is at the core these days. Being able to develop the one-to-one marketing around that, the performance marketing around that. They’re all kind of table stakes today. Social content, influencer, all of that then is there as well.
Then, I guess, the big added value we have in the group is the digital transformation consultancy practice in Sapient, which not many other holding companies have. There are obviously consultancy firms in that area, but in terms of the whole coast, we’re the only one that really has that capability that sits alongside the rest of the…
Darren:
And it’s interesting, sorry to jump in, but it’s interesting, Sapient because there was that time with the merger with Nitro before it was acquired by Publicis, where it was weird because it was trying to be more like a digital agency rather than its core.
The very foundations of Sapient was all about technological, digital-driven transformation. These were big platform players at Sapient, but it dallied for a while trying to be an agency, which seemed to be such a waste of capability.
Mike:
It’s interesting. It’s a very fascinating historical reflection. Because if I look back at that, and we weren’t involved with Sapient at the time, this is when (you were right) they were very much a digital consultancy and had that core expertise in that.
I think they were starting to see back then that joining that up with the marketing function in digital marketing was where the world was going. So, I think they were actually quite progressive.
Then, basically, what happened was they were making acquisitions, like you mentioned Nitro, et cetera, and started to package that up together. But it didn’t have the scale and it didn’t have medium.
I think what the group saw was a similar type of vision to what the Sapient team was seeing. And, hence, the acquisition of Sapient actually allowed both of us to basically merge our visions together. But at a super scale that they couldn’t really achieve with just Nitro.
So, what we ended up having to do was really help align Sapient’s core strengths and our core strengths and bring those to market in a combined manner.
Darren:
And it makes a lot of sense for Publicis Groupe to move in that direction with Sapient, because what we’ve seen is the big four have certainly started acquiring sort of more marketing agency capabilities because they’ve realized just doing the sort of tech platform consulting doesn’t work unless you can then follow it through, what’s the saying? They leave money on the table with their clients.
And so, we’ve seen Accenture Interactive or Accenture Song now acquiring agencies, Deloitte Digital are building those capabilities. I mean, it’s becoming a more sort of competitive landscape, isn’t it?
Mike:
Look, it certainly is. I think we’ve seen our competitors certainly look at what we’ve been doing. Perhaps having their own strategies but implementing them in different ways. I think it’s all born from the same view that if you look at what’s happening in society, technology has been fantastic in bringing us closer together in many ways.
But on the flip of that, it’s also driven us apart as humans in society. So, that’s making it even harder for organisations, brands, businesses, to really connect with their audiences and their customers.
Bringing those things together from a marketing perspective, the connectivity around that, is really at the heart of how you can solve for these problems of where society has gone – I guess is our philosophical view. And I think that’s shared by a lot of us.
I think when it comes to the reality of your capabilities to deliver on that, we are still probably the only ones that have the true depth and scale and breadth of those capabilities. We’re still probably the only holding company that has a core media business around that. So, if you look at the consultancies, none of them have a media practice.
Darren:
No, that’s right. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? I mean, I remember Martin Sorrell saying after he left WPP, that Mark Read should sell off GroupM to one of them, and they could have a functional media …
But none of them have made that play. I’m wondering if they’re not quite sure how the media business works because it’s not core to their sort of psychology of the way they run business.
Mike:
Yeah, I would agree. And look, I think for us, what we’re seeing is —I’m a creative agency guy, as you know. I grew up in Saatchi & Saatchi for over 20 years. And one of the things I’ve really enjoyed in my role has really getting back to and getting quite close with the media part of our business. I grew up in a world, Darren, where it was all in the one agency.
Darren:
That’s the same-
Mike:
It was a bundle. So, I really enjoy now getting into the media world. And for us, we’re actually seeing quite a shift in the role media plays in defining an agency ecosystem as well. It’s really becoming quite a core backbone to a village or to a system, because it also then starts to help partner and bring in data. And that union, that relationship, has becoming so critical.
We’re seeing production into media now, even quite a progressive play that some clients are building where usually production and creative will sit together.
So, the role of creative agencies, I still think are very important in defining the brand strategy and the big idea. And then you marry that up. But I think the rise of media has become – I’ve watched over the last probably three to four years, not just locally, but globally – really, really fascinating.
And yes, I think it’s an area where a lot of the competitive consultancy firms don’t have a capability or a handle on.
Darren:
Yeah. And you touched on the fact that you and I both started in advertising when media was part of the agency, but it was also a time when media was pretty much the last five minutes of the presentation, and they put up an Excel spreadsheet with little crosses in boxes, because they’re really only planning half a dozen media channels.
Now they’ve got literally thousands of media channels with so many options, so much data that drives that decision making. It’s no wonder that it’s become almost a substantial driver of the decision-making process.
Mike:
Yeah, and if you look at the lion’s share of a client’s investment is in media and…
Darren:
Always has been now.
Mike:
And always has been. I think it’s because of the complexity now, the greater complexity that’s really heightened the value of the media agencies. They would’ve told you that for years on end, how important the role they play, and they’re right.
But I think now with the complexity there, everyone’s really seeing just how critical it is. And it’s even more important when you can start to bring that together with where the strategy is developed or co-created.
I think that’s the big thing for us now, what we’re seeing is media integration into creative thinking is the critical game changer. And it does happen in your traditional ecosystems or villages.
But when you talk about strategic alignment, that’s probably where we find in the village system where most of the rubies. Because sometimes you’re using different audience sets, sometimes you’re working off different insights, different research platforms and you’re working in isolation.
Whereas when we bring it together creative and media, we’re defining the strategy together, and then we’re going away and executing on that.
So, media people will start to see an idea a lot earlier and creative people and strategists start to get richer audience insights a lot earlier. And I think that’s where we’re seeing the magic starts to formalise. And it’s literally going back to when we were bundle.
Darren:
We’re putting the toothpaste back into the tube.
Mike:
The tube.
Darren:
But I think correctly, you never can because the tube’s actually changed.
Mike:
It has, yes.
Darren:
It’s not going to go back to the way it was at the start of this century. It’s a completely different game. And so, we are having to reinvent for the circumstances that marketers find themselves these days.
You’ve opened the door for me on a really interesting area when you talked about the village again. And that is, I wouldn’t mind just running a couple of different models of integration past you and just get your feeling on them, from your experience.
Because I know over the last 10, 15 years we’ve been interacting Trinity P3 with you at Saatchi’s and now Publicis where we’ve seen your thinking evolve over that time, which is why I wanted to have this conversation.
So, the first one is this idea of building a bespoke agency. Not just bringing your teams together to work together on a client, but actually pulling individuals out and putting them into a new entity.
And probably WPP’s most known for this, like Bank of America was Team America and Vodafone was Team Red, and Ford was Team Blue where they literally pulled people out. What’s your experience of that model or your thinking about that model? Do you think it’s the best or a good way of going forward?
Mike:
Look, I’ll start by saying there’s no one model that’s perfect for any one client. And everything will come back down to what the client’s needs are. We’ve had some very successful situations where we’ve built a bespoke agency for a client. And, as you know, that would come down to whether or not there’s the scope and the commercial model underneath that to provide an…
Darren:
To support it. Yeah.
Mike:
An end-to-end capability. And where we’ve been able to do that, it’s been very successful. And there’s lots of strengths to that model.
Again, it comes down to what the client’s needs are. Some clients really like that. They like to have their own standalone bespoke agency that is there to service their everyday needs as they live and breathe and be part of their marketing department. That they know that can be very responsive to the variety of opportunities and challenges they’re facing.
That’s not to say that can’t happen in the other model either. But there’s some of, I guess the more…
Darren:
It’s a psychological thing, isn’t it?
Mike:
It is, yeah.
Darren:
They have that this is my team. The downside from my experience is keeping people really excited about working on one. Because most people, I think, are attracted to advertising because they like the challenge of lots of different things.
Mike:
You’re right. And it’s been more successful for us where it’s a category that’s really exciting and where the nature of the work they’re doing is quite progressive. So, we set up Team One recently to service the Lexus business. That is a very end-to-end agency, but it’s very progressive. It’s got a luxury automotive, electrification type of category we’re operating in, which is really interesting for talent. It’s got everything from data to CX to advertising to media all in there as well. So, you…
Darren:
So, plenty of challenge.
Mike:
Plenty of challenge, plenty of learning opportunity. It’s a progressive space, and a great client to work with. You can actually have a really strong talent proposition in that respect. So, we’ve had success in that, but it does depend on the client a lot of these things.
And that’s why we operate with different models as well. So, we work with Arnott’s across their entire marketing investment. So, we have an operating model called The Neighbourhood, which is a hub.
And that team is led by a Chief Client Officer – a CCO – and that CCO is the central point of contact with Arnott’s. They work with Arnott’s to define the marketing plan and the activation around that. Then we take the briefs and coordinate everything from media, to advertising, to data, PR, et cetera.
Darren:
Sorry, Mike. So, that’s more like your equalizer.
Mike:
Correct.
Darren:
In that you can dial up and dial down on a needs basis, which is more difficult in the bespoke agency because you’ve got like teams and you’ve got a financial model…
Mike:
Sure, yeah.
Darren:
That secures those resources to dial that down has huge personal impacts on the people in that team.
Mike:
It does, yes.
Darren:
Well, we don’t need as much of you. So, what do I do? If I’m half a person, where am I going to work?
Mike:
So, for some clients that works really well. Because they’ve got a very firm view on their investment over the next three to five years. They’re clear on what they need and that works really well for them. And some prefer a bit more flexibility, a little bit less firm set FTEs, or people and rather have, I guess, a hub…
Darren:
Sorry. You’ve just lost all of the procurement people listening to this. They’re going people, people, oh, FTEs, yes.
Mike:
Those very important assets we have that go up and down our elevator. So again, not every client’s the same. That’s why we go right, there’s the Arnott’s and Neighbourhood model we’ve got, and we have other different versions of that too.
And it all depends also on what is the core capability that a client might be looking for. They might be leaning towards more of a media assignment with a few other additives around that, versus they might want a creative assignment primarily with some CX capabilities, some social and some influencer around that. Or just some performance media as well. It really depends.
That’s when we just sit down, and we basically model it out with a client. And it’s not set in stone. It is very dynamic as the months roll by. And we are always optimising as well.
We’ve got the scale as well, so if we have to make changes, there’s always somewhere where we can…
Darren:
You can utilize those people in other areas.
Mike:
Correct, yes.
Darren:
And I think that’s another important part is to be able to move people around, because I think a lot of marketers like that locked in model don’t realize how much individuals within agencies learn just by that sort of cross pollination on other clients, totally different categories.
But you get ideas, and you see things working that the natural curiosity goes, I wonder how that would go with this client.
Mike:
Absolutely. I mean, I grew up having that benefit working across all the key categories. It’s made me a better marketer today. And that’s something we still provide. One of the things I’m really starting to enjoy myself, personally, and what I see are people in the group starting to benefit from, is the ability to traverse across the different disciplines.
So really coming out of the swim lane, whether it’s working just in a creative agency all your life and you’re now starting to see and work with teams more intimately in CX, in data and media and performance media, and starting to understand that at a generalist level.
I think last year around 75 people moved across the group into new, different agencies, switching out a different functional expertise area as well.
So, that talent proposition is something that’s really quite powerful for us now. It’s not just been about the category diversity, it’s been about working through the different capabilities and it’s making our people just far more fluent and far more progressive in how they’re able to advise clients, because they’ve got a rich diverse experience there. And I think that’s what we keep fueling and nurturing.
Darren:
And how do — because you mentioned earlier that for creative people, we often resist change as an industry and as a generalization.
But how do you open that thinking? Because I know there are some creative people that think creativity is the ad, whereas you actually want to start creating people that think creatively in all aspects of the business beyond marketing to solving business problems, don’t you?
Mike:
Yes. Look, these aren’t absolutes either, Darren. I think creative people are fantastic at ideas and a lot of great creative people have ideas beyond advertising, and they just don’t have the canvas to deploy them. Because the way that they are working in a particular business might not allow them to spread that.
Darren:
Here’s the brief for an ad. And then you come up with an idea that’s not an ad. People go, “No, no, I want an ad.”
Mike:
I’ve got a lot of great friends that are creators from agency brands, and you talk to them outside of work and they’ve got 20 different great ideas that have got nothing to do with advertising. We’ve got to make sure as an industry, as the CEO of Publicis, that we’re able to help thrive and nurture because they’re genuinely really great ideas.
Sometimes when I talk about the conservatism, it’s the reluctance to work in new ways, and that’s just human nature. I don’t think that’s just creative appeal, it’s just the reluctance. It takes more time to want to change the way that they worked in the past.
And I think that’s changed a lot now, because people are seeing this business has radically changed in five years. You’ll be very easily left behind if you don’t start to want to adapt, be curious, learn new things, and be open to different ways of working. I think that’s the challenge for the industry as a whole.
Darren:
Now, Mike, at the start of this conversation you mentioned about how an integrated solution has efficiencies. But we’ve also seen examples, particularly where the integrated models cobbled together that the efficiencies get lost by that infighting over budget between different units and infighting over transfer of fees across various areas.
You’ve actually addressed that. And I can’t imagine it was an easy thing to do, but I’d love if you could share this idea of actually moving to a country or market-based P&L because I think it’s a huge achievement that you’ve been able to do that.
Mike:
Yeah. Thanks Darren. Look, I’ve worked, as you’ve mentioned before, in a lot of different models. And we still do, even though we are a country model here in Australia, a lot of our clients operate across the village system. We like to see ourselves as very adaptive and we lean into that system.
But if we are given the opportunity to design it ourselves, we’ll certainly provide the Publicis’ view on that. And it all comes back down to the country model. I think you’re right in that, traditionally, there is probably three sets of battles that happen in an agency village.
One is the budgets – who gets what, the scope, scope creep, the entrepreneurialism in everyone starts to kind of creep out to the detriment of the client.
The second one is strategic alignment — and that’s probably a big battle on insight, audience, the go-to market strategy, proposition, all of that. There tends to be a bit of battle there. And that’s good, that’s good healthy tension as well. So, we try and make sure that the healthy tension exists too, because you want differing views.
And then the other part is the battle around the application of the idea – how should it be? The CX specialist might have a different view to a storyteller in film.
So, those three are the kind of key areas. What we have been able to do, it starts with us. It’s organisational design, and that’s the country model. This is the Publicis Groupe global transformation that started in 2016.
So, right now we have one P&L that sits at a country level across Australia and New Zealand and all the brands operate into that.
That allows us to basically put the client’s needs, their ambitions, their marketing scope, at the heart of everything we do. So, there isn’t infighting anymore because there’s one P&L. It’s one payment to Publicis, and we work out the best talent capabilities to solve that brief.
And in models like Arnott’s, that’s very modular. We can redeploy people from other parts of the ecosystem at will. We do that for Toyota as well. We have the creative and the media and the CRM assignment for Toyota in Australia. So, we’re able to provide a really connected platform for Toyota.
So, we don’t necessarily have that traditional level of infighting. More of the tension comes in the strategic debate, which is great. As I said, we want to maintain that. We want to have great people in the areas of expertise come in and tear things apart and rebuild them together.
We are able to do that with the client strategy and objectives at the centre. Not where we start to maybe pull out some additional kind of budget for our own P&L, because that doesn’t exist.
Then the idea application is another area we’ve found because we’re working together upfront on strategy, on the idea. We might have the creators from Digitas with the teams from Saatchi & Saatchi or Leo Burnett all working together up front.
Then there’s this buy-in. It’s not just like a relay, it’s more like rugby. And I think that’s the kind of ways of working.
We also have one unified process. So, for our connected clients, we have ways of working, something that we’re really passionate about.
It’s a defined unified process. It’s three really simple steps that everyone, no matter what agency brand they come from, or expertise they come from, follow in this process. And our clients also support and buy into that.
That helps take that unhealthy tension out, because there’s good tension that you need to keep in the system.
Darren:
I love that because, I say to people all the time, the model or the metaphor we should be thinking about is the oyster. It’s the grit that gets into the oyster that makes the pearls.
I worry sometimes that people think that they need a relationship between their agencies and with their agencies that is frictionless. And that’s incredibly dangerous because ideas come from problems, from irritations.
When something’s not working solutions come from something not working. So yeah, that distinction of good friction and bad friction, getting rid of the bad so that you can focus on the good is really powerful.
Mike:
You want super smart talent to be able to kind of debate their thoughts and their feelings in a way that’s healthy, that’s…
Darren:
Respectful.
Mike:
Respectful. That allows everyone to have their say. And I think that’s important. I think that’s where you get the greatness from.
Darren:
Yeah, absolutely. Mike Rebelo, thank you very much. We’ve run out of time.
Mike:
Is that it, Darren? I was enjoying that. I was just getting warmed up.
Darren:
Well, I remember years ago you were known as the Mr. Wolf of Saatchi’s because you seemed to get sent to not clean up, fix up all these different markets. Now you’ve worked in Vietnam?
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
New Zealand?
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
Singapore?
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
London?
Mike:
Yes.
Darren:
And two visits to Australia?
Mike:
Yep.
Darren:
Right. Which is your favourite market?
