Lydia Feely is the TrinityP3 General Manager responsible for managing and facilitating some of this country’s most high-profile creative pitches over the past decade. But also brings a marketer focus to the conversation, with a career managing marketing teams across the UK and Australia.
Since the pandemic, agencies around the world have been increasingly vocal about ditching the pitch, and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming it is broken and even dead.
As Australia’s and APAC’s leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic, so we undertook our own research called The State of the Pitch in Australia.
You can download your copy of the State of the Pitch Australia Report for free here.
You can listen to the podcast here:
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As you know, the right agency can make or break the business results that you achieve together. But there’s a big difference between running a pitch and participating in one. So, then, for me, that’s the big difference. So, as a marketer, you definitely want to be involved in making the decision of which agency partner you’re going to choose.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you are enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
Since the pandemic, there’s been an increasingly vocal call from agencies around the world to ditch the pitch, and trade media have run headlines and opinion pieces claiming the pitch is broken and even dead.
As Australia and APAC’s leading pitch consultancy, we noticed that while there were plenty of opinions, there was very little data on this topic, so we undertook our own research called State of the Pitch in Australia.
Well, while all the data from our research came from the agencies, my guest today brings a marketer’s focus to the conversation. With a career managing marketing teams across the UK and Australia. Please welcome to the managing marketing podcast, TrinityP3, general manager, Lydia Feely. Welcome, Lydia.
Lydia:
Thanks, Darren. Great to be here.
Darren:
Well, look let’s jump straight into it. The results of the research showed that quite a significant number of the pitches that were recorded were actually run by marketers. So, the majority of them were run by marketers. And that’s interesting from the perspective of marketers have a lot to do.
So, I’m wondering if running their own pitch is something that is just expected of them and they do it because it’s expected, or do you think that this is something that they genuinely want to do? Is running a pitch something that marketers love?
Lydia:
It’s probably a bit of both, but I think yes, there is often an expectation that CMOs will run their own pitch and where the CEO will very clearly think it’s just part of the job for a CMO. I’ve seen that when I was a client and even now as a pitch consultant, I’m still seeing that expectation from CEOs. We hear it all the time actually.
But there’s a big difference between running a pitch and participating in one. So, then for me, that’s the big difference. So, as a marketer, you definitely want to be involved in making the decision of which agency partner you’re going to choose.
I mean, as you know that the right agency can make or break the business results that you achieve together. So yes, CMOs definitely want to do this part. But on the other side, running a pitch, basically, it involves hours of admin and getting in stakeholders diaries, making tweaks to the process if needed. And this is time that CMOs just don’t have.
Darren:
Now, it’s interesting what you said about the CEO expecting it because we have had a number of situations where a CMO knows that they’re facing a particularly maybe political or complex situation, and so they come and talk to us about helping them manage the pitch process only to then come back a little bit subdued and say, “Look, I’ve been told that I have to do it myself even though I really want to work with you.”
I mean, the pitch has become so ubiquitous that in popular culture, it’s almost like, “Well, of course you run it, you’re the CMO.”
Lydia:
And well, it’s a shame as well because I mean, in other parts of the business, you look at a lot of IT, tenders that other people manage, no one’s really expected to run that themselves. They’re yes, definitely be part of their decision and consider all of the components of it. But there’s always other consultants that come in or other parties that come in to run that because it’s multimillion dollar decisions.
And it can often be the case as well for a marketing pitch or an agency. So, it’s bizarre. I don’t know, it probably just the opinion of that particular CEO. But that said, I mean, there are some that don’t think that, so it’s not every CEO.
Darren:
Well, I know a couple of quite large pictures where we actually encourage the CEO and most of the C-suite to participate. And they were actually genuinely surprised at the level of due diligence and rigor, but also the complexity of the issues that do arise during pitches. Things like the people mix and the strategy and things like that.
Lydia:
I know, and also, I think straight away when you do enter a pitch, it’s just what’s possible when you start looking at the strategy with the agency or if it’s a creative agency and then what’s possible within your business from a client point of view, definitely, because you get that right. And then the growth can happen or you can achieve the results that you want to, and you can have help to do that. So, I think that becomes clear quite quickly as well.
Darren:
Now, you touched on it before when you’re talking about the amount of time that it takes. Pitches are quite time consuming. Some of it’s admin, some of it’s just really an investment in getting to know the various agencies. I’ve never met a marketer that’s told me that they’ve got plenty of hours in the day to spare to run a pitch. Was that your experience?
Lydia:
Definitely, yeah. I’d say that marketers definitely don’t have time to run a pitch. And it is because they’re just so busy. I know when I was a client, you’d be covering so many different parts of the business to get the results that you needed, that you were on the line for. Anything on top of this would then take you away from that.
So, to me, the question’s not about if they’ve got time to run a pitch, but what part of the business are they’re going to take the time from, because it stops you doing other stuff that you’ve got to do. And it’s not the quality stuff. So, they have to be involved. So, that time, yes, they need to carve out space for that to participate in the pitch, but not the admin part. That’s just a waste.
Darren:
And look, that’s probably what you’d carve off if you had procurement working, you’d say, “Well, you do the admin and let us have the fun bit hanging out with the agency.” Because that is one of the joys of pitching, isn’t it?
Is getting out there and seeing all the agencies and getting to compare and contrast them, it is quite probably a highlight for many marketers compared to the bulk of what you were talking about, which is on their remit.
Lydia:
That’s right. And also, they get to it’s almost like they come up to speed with what’s going on in the market, or what’s the latest things that agencies are doing for other clients. Because when they get to see what campaigns or credentials, what work they’ve been doing straight away, they just see what’s possible or what’s new in the market. So, that’s a good part of it. Yeah, definitely. It’s great.
Darren:
Do you think that probably the lack of ability to invest the time they need was what was driving the fact that very few pitches actually ran on time? We saw that more than the majority of them were running late. Is that part of the problem?
Lydia:
Yeah, it was a problem when I was a client. It was a problem when I was a pitch consultant because … and I kind of half-jokingly say when I work with clients, but getting time in people’s diaries, in the stakeholder’s diaries is probably one of the hardest things. So yes, you’re making a big decision about who’s the right partner but that is really tricky.
So, yeah, I think that’s hands down with, if you are not sort of so focused on getting times in diaries to start and setting it for the whole process. And yes, you can tweak it here and there, but if you don’t have commitment from those stakeholders, it will go off the rails without a doubt.
Darren:
And look, it’s amazing because we as pitch consultants take a quite diligent role in plotting out and scheduling the process up front and we say to people, “Has anyone got holidays?” And I remember one, we got started and suddenly one of the major decision makers had forgotten that they had a wedding and a honeymoon right in the middle of it.
I’m not sure how you forget your wedding and honeymoon, but that’s significant. But then there’s also those disruptions that happen. Because I know a number of times, we’ve been running a pitch and suddenly the CMO doesn’t turn up because they’ve been urgently called to the CEO’s office for a meeting.
So, there are some things that you can’t schedule and can’t plan. What do you think should be the strategy then when you have to suddenly postpone or delay something?
Lydia:
It’s probably just really keeping those involved, informed. So, that is the internal team. So, you’ve got the client team, but also then the agencies. And if you know that is at risk, if you’ve got something like a day or a meeting that’s at risk and you just need to be flexible, you can give people a heads up on that.
So, you can still kind of work around it within the same timeframe. It doesn’t have to then all just go and start again. So, that’s what I do anyway. Give everyone a heads up.
Darren:
No, I know. Because sometimes when it’s last minute, they’ve seen two agencies and then they have to rush to a meeting with the know the CEO. And they go, “Well, it’s okay if I don’t see the next two.” It’s really not fair, is it?
Because they’ve seen two and then there’s going to be maybe one or two more. So, it is probably better to just reschedule and try and fit those in so that all the decision makers can be there.
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right within reason. And to be honest, there’s very rare, it might be just slightly delayed and you’re probably just a little bit delayed. But that doesn’t happen too often. I think the clients are quite considerate or they understand.
Darren:
Diligent, quite diligent.
Lydia:
Diligent, yeah.
Darren:
So, as a pitch consultant in the last 10 years, do you have a count of how many pitches you’ve run just off the top of your head? Because I would say, you’ve been doing at least maybe one a month maybe or one every couple of months.
Lydia:
Yeah, one every few months and then different types of projects, but probably about 80.
Darren:
80 a year?
Lydia:
No, 80 in total.
Darren:
80 in total. Well, the reason I ask is I can’t imagine there’s many marketers and when you were a marketer that you were running that many pitches, were you?
Lydia:
No, of course not, no. You’d look so serious. Someone seriously looking at you if you were.
Darren:
Yes. “I’m going to run eight pitches. What’s your marketing plan, Feely? Well, I’m actually going to pitch eight of my agencies.”
Lydia:
You could have one per brand or per division. But no, that would be ridiculous.
Darren:
On the basis of doing something regularly, it’s as the best way of learning how to do it well. It sort of does make it a challenge for marketers when they’re perhaps running a pitch every couple of years.
Lydia:
Yeah. And not even that, sometimes we see long-term relationships and then maybe after 8, 10 years people may only go to pitch then. So, you’ve been working with an agency for a long time. So, the working with the agency is what they’ve got as experience. Going a pitch — or running a pitch, not necessarily.
But I mean, I think you learn things as you go when you’re a client of what you need to see when you are selecting an agency. So, what you know to see their capabilities because you’ve been working with that. But at the same time, you need to run a process that includes all of those. So, you can see those capabilities.
Darren:
It probably explains why marketers are inclined to fall back on a process that’s been around for more than three or four decades. The pitch process that’s described in the research really hasn’t changed from the Mad Men days.
Invite a whole lot of agencies in, meet with them and then give them a handful of them a creative brief to go off and whoever comes up with the best idea wins the business.
Lydia:
And I think it also is, maybe, I know, so you as a client, you’ve been to different businesses and pitches may have been run sort of the same type of process as you’ve moved on. But what I noticed is that what works for one business, when you go to a new company or a new brand, that doesn’t necessarily work for that new brand or then the new business.
It might be more complex, might be different industry. You might have more stakeholders, different divisions, but the process sometimes needs to change because of that. And you’ve got to learn that. So, one process definitely doesn’t work for across different businesses.
Darren:
No, no. And of course, now we’ve got lots of different agencies as well.
Lydia:
That’s right.
Darren:
Technology’s driven a whole lot of specialists and marketing has become omnichannel as you wrote about what about two years ago about omnichannel marketing on the TrinityP3 blog. That does mean that marketers often find themselves looking for agencies with quite a complex mix of skills, as we saw in the research. There was at least four different capabilities and up to 11 in one case. That’s a challenge, isn’t it?
Lydia:
It is, yeah. That’s right. And I think sometimes clients that are after to see what they can get, maybe see if they can get one agency who can do the most of those capabilities and then maybe fill the gaps after that. So, that’s one way of looking at it.
Or there’s a whole range of different models that they can look at to find the best mix of agencies that it’s kind of like it’s really looking at what the end game is, what does success look like for them? And then working backwards.
So, trying to sort of demystify the complexity around just how many capabilities are out there and how many they need. Because you can spin yourself around in circles if you start thinking about all the possibilities when you go to pitch.
Darren:
And in some cases, if you’re a marketer going to market because you just want to know what else is out there without any clear view of what success looks like, I can imagine it’d get very confusing. Because you’ve got all these agencies touting all of the different capabilities they have.
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right. And you’ve really got to get a sense of your priorities and you’ve really got to get a sense of your capabilities within your team and then you go from there. And then don’t even start. But then you’ve got in-house as well. Possible hybrids and so the opportunity, like the options are endless.
Darren:
And yet you’re trying to get the piece, it’s almost like trying to find the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle that you’ve spent hours on trying to put together and trying to find that perfect fit that’s going to complete the picture, isn’t it?
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right. Definitely.
Darren:
How do you now as a pitch consultant, keep up to date with all of the changes that are happening in the marketplace? All the new agencies, and dare I say, the last 18 months at least, every agency’s talking about their AI capabilities. So, that’s a whole new thing for us to really get under the skin of, isn’t it?
Lydia:
Yeah. Well, I think we talked about it before and just how many pitches I do run and seeing agencies and their credentials all the time, that definitely helps because you just see what they’re up to. Now, we see agencies within pitches, but we also see agencies outside, so we see their credentials. So, we kind of constantly seeing them up to date.
We keep up to date looking at who’s launching campaigns in the market and what they’re doing, who’s winning effectiveness awards, keeping track of key talent when there’s movements in talent across different agencies and what they’re bringing.
And then just mainly just speaking amongst ourselves or just keeping our ear to the ground in the industry. So, just what’s news.
But that takes a lot of time and instantly things can change, like talent can change or new campaign can be launched. And now that’s not just in Australia, that’s globally as well. So, what’s happening elsewhere, that’s a big thing that we look at as well. So, what are the trends?
Darren:
Particularly the trends. Yeah, the trends overseas.
Lydia:
Definitely. And as you know, when we’ve done searches for global companies, we see what’s coming down the track in Australia because of what’s happening in, say, for Europe for example.
Darren:
Or certainly in-housing was a big issue in the U.S. a good 10 years before it really started to take off here, so it’s interesting. And then you see the sort of, not mistakes, but the changes that happen with in-housing as different companies find different ways of making it happen.
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right. But we can learn from that. So, if we can see that overseas, we can give that, we can talk to people here about that. So, we see, AI is one of those things as well.
Darren:
Because you worked in London for quite a while. And when you came back to Australia, did you see a difference then with the approach to marketing or the thinking around marketing? Because each market is quite different, isn’t it?
Lydia:
It’s quite different. And then with the difference between London and Australia, I mean, it’s just a smaller market, so that’s probably the biggest difference. And just in London you have a lot more specialists. And Australia, the CMOs tend to run, or you’ve got more generalists working in client side and in Australia.
So, it’s good or bad. It’s good experience to have knowledge across all different things. But London, and it just goes to another level. Bigger budgets there’s just more investment.
Darren:
One of the things I heard years ago when I first started, what someone said to me that marketers really only walk around with three agencies in mind in any particular category and this was a CMO that was explaining it.
They said, “There’s the agency I’m with, the one I used to work with, and then one other.” And I always share that with agencies. Because I say, if you want to get on someone’s consideration list, you’ve got to find a way of becoming one other.
Is that something that resonates with you? Do you think CMOs spend a lot of time thinking about agencies in the marketplace?
Lydia:
Not unless they’re in the market. No, and oh, they might have heard something. They do talk to their peers. So, I think they are, or so to say they’ll ask their peers which agencies that they’ve either seen or who they’re working with and what’s great about them or not. So, that’s what I’ve heard when I was speaking to clients these days and also when I was clients.
So, you kind of got your finger on the pulse that way, but you still can’t know that’s not that many when you’re talking, unless you know everyone in the whole industry talking about their agencies. But they definitely like to try and see what’s happening during that.
Darren:
I like it when marketers talk to their peers, particularly the colleagues in the same organization. I had a bank come to me, they were looking for agri/rural specialist agency. And I said to them, “We could do a market search.” And they actually said, “Oh, no, no, we’ve already done that. We’ve got a list of agencies that are specialists in rural agribusiness.” And I said, “Oh, well that’s great. Let show me the list.”
And ironically, because you know how marketers coming from financial services yourself, how marketers are inclined to stay within a category from job to job. Every single agency was working with one of their competitors.
Because effectively they just asked everyone who they knew and all of those people were working in financial services. So, they all just nominated a specialist agency in financial services.
Lydia:
And you were left with none.
Darren:
Well, I have to say to them, unless one of them’s willing to jump ship to drop their current client to come and work for them, you pretty much had a non-existent list. Though a very good list of agri agencies that’s working in banking.
Lydia:
That’s the easy bit. Conflict’s always that one. It’s always the tricky one when you’re doing a search list.
Darren:
Now, do you find that having your marketing experience and having worked on some major brands that now as a pitch consultant, that opens up more interesting conversations with your clients that are the marketers that you’re helping with pitching?
Lydia:
Yeah. I think so. I’ve been in their seat. So, the burden of making this decision and what that means, and the fact that you are going to be accountable for then what goes out the door, your return on investment, your business results. Yeah, I definitely feel that with them. And I look at it that way when I’m working with clients.
So, I’m definitely conscious of all that, all the way through getting the strategy right. How important that is in terms of the agency, that’s key. And helping them get that they write their brief, their big strategic issue that they need help with. But that is crucial when we’re working on pitch.
Darren:
So, if you don’t mind me asking, because there’s a few things that I’m always curious about the first thing is that marketers are often either over enthusiastically sharing every piece of data and research with the agencies that they’re working with, or they hold it back completely and largely let the agencies work in a vacuum.
Now, I get that wanting to hold it back to protect and mitigate risk. But the oversharing would be the only way that an agency is going to come up with a solution, particularly if you’re running a creative pitch with speculative creative, you’d have to give them the same information you give an agency you are working with.
Lydia:
That’s right. It depends. So, I find most clients are happy to do that to a point if it’s, say a creative agency when it gets into the digital and data involved, I think that’s where … because that is personal. That is highly sensitive data. So, I think that that’s the difference.
But in saying that, I think there’s always a limit. So, to a point, they give the agency a certain amount of information that they can do something with. Obviously, they’re not going to be able to solve everything because they’re not going to be able to give them everything.
But at the same time, you don’t want to take up all of the pitch time by them just trying to read all of the information that they give them. Then you’re just buried. They’re just buried in too much information. You just want to be able to see what they can do with the information that you can give them and that information does make sense or it is part of the bigger problem.
Darren:
Because a lot of marketers say they want the agency to do speculative creative because then they could possibly run it. But I always think you can never get to the exact solution you want unless you’re working with them in the way you’d work with them as your agency.
Lydia:
That’s right. Rarely do we do, they have to come up with a campaign. There’ll be the foundations of a campaign that comes out in the pitch but rarely would it go to air like that or into market.
Darren:
Because going back to your time as a marketer, your time poured, it seems an alluring promise that you could get the campaign done and do the pitch at the same time.
Lydia:
It has happened but very rare.
Darren:
That’s very rare. It’s very hit and miss as well and fraught with danger. Because I think we were both working on a insurance pitch where we ran strategy workshops and there was one clear agency in front, and then they decided, “Oh, it’d be good to see some creative.”
And one agency came up with amazing creative, not on strategy, but it was just an amazing piece of creative. And suddenly everyone’s going, “We want that campaign, but this is the agency with the best strategy.” It’s like, how do you divorce the two? You either want the strategy or you want the creative.
Lydia:
Tricky, tricky. Well, just depends how well they could rework it. Talking about that, I always said at Orange in the UK when I was working there, and they went with the campaign that won the pitch and actually that was the first campaign I worked and rolled out. But it was brilliant. It was the first WAP ad.
Darren:
So, they literally bought the pitch campaign.
Lydia:
Yeah. And obviously it was the right strategy. But the actual creative was developed in the pitch and they changed agency for it.
Darren:
The other thing I’ve noticed is the way that when marketers get to the end of the pitch process and they’ve appointed an agency, there’s so much excitement and they just want to rush off into starting to make ads together. It’s almost like the honeymoon period. The wedding’s over and we’re straight into the honeymoon period, as they call it.
Lydia:
Yes.
Darren:
Why is that?
Lydia:
It’s the hope, it’s the promise and the hope that they’ve experienced or they’ve felt through the pitch and if it is right, and if they’ve connected with this agency and the agency’s connected with them, and it’s just the possibilities are endless. So, that’s why they’re heading into it.
It’s like, it’s all going to be wonderful, and then they’ve got to then get work out the door, which is still fun. So, it always still works. Remember I’ve got a client they did a entire brand relaunch with an agency and had to, I don’t even think that’s right. They hadn’t even got the name and that ad, didn’t have the logo, so they did it.
But they had the pitch and then an agency won that. So, they had to then get that information and then go, but they’ve done so well. It’s been over three years now, and they’ve — definitely we’re in the honeymoon, but they’ve just been able to do that.
Darren:
Going strong. But again, hit and miss, hit and miss if you get the honeymoon wrong.
Lydia:
I’m giving you a positive example of that one.
Darren:
Fair enough. The other thing that’s happened, and we’ve seen this particularly in the last 10 years, is that there isn’t one sort of roster of agencies or one agency arrangement is there? We’ve got everything from what’s called the villages with the best of breed integrated, which we’ve seen with the number of clients going to one agency and getting everything integrated in together.
Then we’ve got a bespoke solution where they’ve basically a holding company usually has come up with some sort of solution that this really complicates things, doesn’t it, when it comes to pitching for an agency?
Lydia:
Yes, it can definitely. But again, so my experience as a client and also observing marketers is that I don’t think clients are really that sure what they want exactly until they maybe start seeing things.
And that’s why often we say, or what I often when I say is include a range of different options in your pitch list, in the long list so that you can have a little bit of look at what is involved in those different models, and you’ll know whether it’s right or not from what you’ve seen. So, their capabilities, but also just what seems right.
And sometimes that’s a bit hard for clients to understand. You don’t know until you’re through. But once they get into that, that’s when they see. I always remember, it’s slightly unrelated, but when there’s an agency everyone’s talking about, and everyone was, “Oh, yes, no, we must have them on our list. We have to see them. I think they’re right for us.”
And then you might say, “Well, you sure, this is what they like or it’s a bit different or their capabilities over this side. Oh yeah, no, we do.” And then as soon as they see them in like, “Oh yeah, no, they’re not for us.” So, I think once clients are actually in front of an agency, they just get a feel for it, I think.
Darren:
And it’s not really until they are in front. I think that’s a really good point you make. People talk about chemistry sessions or credentials, presentations. It’s not until you’re actually face to face. It doesn’t matter what people write in their RFP or RFI or EOI or RFTs, it’s not until you actually get to sit and talk to the team that you really get the measure. And it’s not just whether I like them or not. It’s whether I believe them, isn’t it?
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right. And just what’s possible with them and agencies are very skilled at talking about their capabilities and only they can really do that.
And then in terms of just how it all comes together, if they have got a model that’s maybe a network solution or how they all work together where they can tap into different resources. We see that as well where the power behind some of the work they do on the digital side and then how that can be connected.
Darren:
Have you got any examples of where marketers have gone into the process and felt completely confused or feeling like it wasn’t going the right way, but it came good in the end? Without naming names, because I don’t want to embarrass any of that.
Lydia:
No, I’m not going to do that. I think yes, I have got a few examples where they’ve headed down the path and then they’ve realized they’re not sure about certain parts of their capabilities. And that’s where we then add another step into the process.
So, we’ll then work specifically about the things that they would then become worried about or they’re not sure about or maybe it’s neck and neck or they can’t decide when they’re starting to go through. So, that’s when we just tweak the process a bit.
Darren:
And look, that’s important, isn’t it? The ability to be able to have some flexibility in there so that at the end of the day, the marketers can make the most informed decision possible.
Lydia:
Yeah, that’s right. And we have a balance. We say, you’ve got to try and stick to the process and stick to the timeline. But I think we’ll often tweak it, it’ll be sort of earlier on in the process where we start seeing, okay, we’re not going to get across with the process we have. And that’s where we just talk to the client about, we could do this.
We’re always giving them the options. We’re always giving them the pros and cons and then the options to move forward. And then once they’re comfortable with that, then we move forward. But yeah, there’s sometimes when they’re a bit apprehensive or they’re not sure. They can’t decide or they don’t know who to cut when we have to cull some through.
Because again, we don’t want to take everyone through the process. That’s another temptation that clients might have. “Can’t we just take everyone through, isn’t it?” But they do realize it, it’s unfair. It’s unfair to do that.
Darren:
And you have to make a decision.
Lydia:
Yes, it’s right.
Darren:
Whether you make it today or in a month’s time, you’re going to have to … there’s only one winner as they say.
Lydia:
That’s right. And it just makes it harder. But usually, they come to the right, well, when I say the right decision, usually the decision becomes clear to them as they move through the process.
Darren:
Lydia Feely, thank you very much. We’ve run out of time, but it’s been great getting your perspective, particularly with your extensive marketing experience and which is what you actually bring to the team at TrinityP3. So, thank you.
Lydia:
You are welcome. It’s been good to chat.
Darren:
And for everyone, the State of the Pitch in Australia report is available as a free download from the website, trinityp3.com/state-of-the-pitch with hyphens in between each one. Thanks very much.
