Sean Cummins, founder and creative strategist at Cummins&Partners, returns to the Managing Marketing podcast eight years later to share his view on the state of the industry with Ellie Angell.
Sean is an icon in the advertising industry. He has spent the past 40-odd years building agencies and is outspoken about the issues facing the industry. Here, he shares his views on the state of marketing, creativity, client/agency relationships, diversity, and pitches.
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It’s a bit of a vicious cycle at the moment. And we’re only one part of the curve.
Transcription:
Ellie:
My name is Ellie Angell, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
And remember, if you are enjoying the Marketing Managing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode, help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week. And today, I’m joined by someone very wise. Sean Cummins, founder and Chief Creative Officer of Cummins&Partners. Welcome Sean, and thank you very much for joining me.
Sean:
Ellie, thank you for having me. Very wise, just lower your expectations and please, anyone that’s listening, all two of you that may be listening, lower your expectations. I got nothing to say.
Ellie:
This is going to be fun.
Sean:
I hope so.
Ellie:
There are untold thousands listening to this podcast, so feel that pressure. Now Sean, you are a bit of an icon in this industry. I’ve got to say in honor of your 40 odd years in this industry, you’ve built this business and also you are well known for you’re outspoken, you’ve got views on things, which is great.
And so, I thought I’d depart from the normal little bit and do this slightly differently. Normally I will pose the questions I would like you to ask, but in this case, I asked you about the topics you most wanted to cover, and what we’ve kind of arrived at is a sort of series of states of questions for us to discuss.
Sean:
Sounds good. Yeah.
Ellie:
Broad, big topic. So, in that particular order, we’re going to talk about the state of marketing, the state of creativity, the state of clients, the state of agencies, the state of diversity. And the last one, which I’m willing to take some punches on, the state of pitches. And business today.
Sean:
So you should.
The State of Marketing
Ellie:
Well, indeed. So, look, let’s start at the beginning. Let’s talk about the state of marketing. It’s obviously so fundamental to everything, we all revolve around it. What’s driving us forward right now, and what is holding us back in your view? What do you see?
Sean:
What do I see? Because I do my own investigation. I have my own interactions with people. I read what everyone else reads, and I may forge some opinions, which are a little bit off the beaten track a bit. But it comes from a good place.
And I just want to walk back, one thing that you said about being outspoken. The interesting thing about my position is I don’t really answer to a holding company. I don’t answer to shareholders as it were. And I don’t really have a corporate line.
So, I think that’s put me in the wonderful position of being able to say, I think what probably everyone else is thinking, I’m not either that sort of opinionated or visionary that I say anything that’s so incredibly vast.
I just think, I say things that are often on the tips of people’s tongues, and that has a power as well, because I get to say what other people would say. And oftentimes when I’ve been in a position of controversy that’s usually the response. Not like I did anything or said anything particularly kind of mind snapping. It was just, yeah, I wanted to say that too.
So, I’m just the person that can speak and I do so genuinely and out of a love of this business fundamentally.
So, the first thing about the state of marketing today well, one thing that’s kind of obvious to me, and again, just picking up on the stuff that’s out there, is, I think we’re in the era of the celebrity CMO. Got it?
Ellie:
It’s a great place to start.
Sean:
A good place to start. Yes. These ex-agency people who found a gig client side, and by and large, I think it’s been really, really good broadly speaking, some nice advertising. I don’t think we need to pinpoint them. I think everyone can instantly picture who we’re talking about and good on them.
And I say that genuinely because I think it’s been a fantasy of probably every person in advertising, “If I went client side,” well, these people have done it and good on them, and they have done some nice work.
And if there’s a thread in anything I’m talking about today, it’ll be probably about the difference between doing what I call wonderful one-offs versus more enduring campaigns. I think we are not doing ourselves and our clients and the industry a favor by continuing to do non campaignable ideas.
My prevailing theme would be today, where are the brand platforms? Where are the enduring ideas the distinctive brand assets? Where’s the continuity, where’s the kind of the stick addedness? There just doesn’t seem to be a lot of that at the moment.
And so, that’s where I see marketing being. And maybe that’s a syndrome that’s happened because a lot more marketing people are moving around a lot more than ever in history. I think it’s been going in this direction for a long while, but my goodness, the tenure of a lot of CMOs seems to be shorter and shorter.
And I grew up in an industry where the CMOs, I don’t even think they were called CMOs back then, but they stayed around forever and they really, were the ones that were the brand custodians for the given client. And I think that corporate memory, the turnover and everything gets challenged by people that come in and out with their own ideas.
And I think it takes a certain selflessness to actually bunker down and hunker down and all the other unker words. And actually, create and write a platform that may take years to see. It’s the fullness of what it could be. Nurture it, grow it, and sometimes you may not get the award or the recognition that other more momentary, fashionable pieces of work would do.
So, I think the state of marketing today, I would have to say, is very fashionable, very momentary, very kind of doing what’s new and what’s now. But I think what’s being missed is a wonderful opportunity to bed something down and create something that’s a legacy for the brand.
And I think that we have to start seeing advertising as a relay race. And our job is to run our distance and hand the baton, the brand, off securely and safely to the next people. They grab it and run their segment of the race, but it’s the one baton that we’re carrying.
And I think the inconsistency and what’s happened, and what I keep on seeing is there’s no batons. There’s no one handing over something in good stead to the next runner. And everyone’s running in different directions, and they’re dropping them if there is batons.
And it’s just basically they’re running in the opposite direction and there’s really no sense of greater continuity and the journey of the brand. And I have just been trained relentlessly to perform in that way.
Ellie:
What’s driving these things though? I mean, because I love that analogy of the baton, the passing the baton. And I also love the fact that a lot of what you’re talking about is almost like marketing 101. I mean, it’s how you grow brands via continuity, consistency.
Are we addicted to the drug of what’s new and what’s fashionable? Or are marketers so in fear now of their jobs or losing their jobs that they feel that the only way they can add value is to, “do something new?”
Sean:
Yeah, I think all of the above. I think the addiction point is we want that instant gratification of our work. And I always think that the steeper the trend line when a campaign goes out means the steeper the fall.
And I’ve just always been one to be a bit more 45 degrees about a trend line rather than just have it shoot up because I like to say a lot of the campaigns that we may know or we may be talking about, or that we recognize have just come out of nowhere, they are like skyrockets. They shoot upwards and they burst brightly into the sky, and then it’s incredible darkness afterwards.
We just sink into a eerie and deeper blackness than ever before, because that was the one moment to get attention. And then there’s nothing. And I think we’ve lost that ability to run a longer — use a race analogy, to run a longer race and endurance it’s there in the word. It’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint.
I just think we’re too wanting to win that award to bump ourselves up in the lists and the charts and the recognition, or maybe in the pay grade or whatever. And we’re not thinking in a more selfless manner.
Ellie:
I mean, I think the other thing that you are touching that’s going through my head as you’re talking about that is marketing to ourselves as opposed to marketing to the actual consumers who are buying our products.
And there’s always been an inherent … we’re going to talk about diversity in this industry a bit later, but there always has been a kind of inherent — the need to win awards that drives new business. The need to climb up from under the sort of pile of rocks that marketers often find themselves under in an organization and really justify themselves.
How they justify themselves. Is it that rocket ship? Or is it something more sedate … or less revolutionary in creative terms, but that will actually cut through to consumers longer-term. And I don’t know. I see both of those things in some of the marketing that comes out.
But I do worry that it is becoming more prevalent to just to have the rocket ship that you talk about.
Sean:
It is. And obviously the two different approaches can coexist. But I think more and more brands will start either doing an archeological dig on what worked in the past, or they’ll empty their pockets and say, “Hang on a second, we just had that little button over there, and we have that little thing over there, and maybe we could actually bring that back.”
And we’ll see more brands do a little bit of again, archeology and look at what really worked and ask the basic question, why did we ever leave that? Why did we ever leave that campaign? The not invented here syndrome, whether it’s the new CMO or it came from somewhere else has just got to push aside, and you’ve got to just …
If we’re going to talk to the consumer and get their opinion, get their opinion about everything, not just about how they’re feeling today, but what do you remember about the given brand?
And we talk about the mental availability and the saliency and the attention deficit and everything like that. If they remember something about the brand, however seemingly small or trifling, it could actually unlock something bigger.
We are here fighting for their attention at the end of the day. And if they connected to something in the past recent or long time past, it’s pretty much imprinted into people what that brand and how that brand should show up.
Unless there’s a cultural change that means you can no longer say things in a certain way, whatever. But I would beseech every CMO to go back through — I don’t even know what they call them these days. They call them guard books or something, or files, whatever it is. Whatever they need to click on.
And just actually, spend time seeing what worked, because we haven’t evolved as human beings so quickly that we have become immune to the hooks and the jingles or the words or the sentiments or the history that a brand may have had before that unlocks something special in a consumer’s mind.
And I think that’s where you should always start. And just recently, and I feel good about this, but I had a campaign that I did in New Zealand many, many years ago that was kind of iconic and a bit controversial and everything. It was for Tui Beer, Tui is a bird, magpie looking bird.
And we did this funny little campaign, myself and a couple of other Aussies actually were over there at the time, back in ‘95, ‘96. So, that’s getting on a 30 years ago. And it’s a campaign that captivated the New Zealand market then, and they’ve just bought it back now.
And it’s getting a revival of whatever dimension, but it’s extremely satisfying to see work that you do come back. And in fact, for me, it’s extremely satisfying to see any work by anybody come back. If it worked back then. I just can’t believe that we are not more respectful to stuff that clearly actually did something.
The State of Creativity
Ellie:
And how does that feed into the role and the state of creativity? Because what you’ve just said implies actually quite a lot of bravery to be agnostic about where the idea came from or how that old the idea is.
And it also has implications for how we define what “creativity” actually is. Are we sort of in some sort of state of creative decline that’s kind of leading to this kind of knee jerking or are we collectively as capable as we always were of making an I bought a Jeep. And making that kind of platform stick.
I mean, what you said so far implies that you don’t think that we are really — and whether capable is the right word even, we’re just not in that place where those kind of platforms are being articulated from.
Sean:
Yeah. I think we’ve just got to get out of our own way a little bit. And actually do the respectful thing to the investment that brands have made before we even got into advertising. Brands will exist long after we’ve shuffled off.
And I want clients to look back and certainly with my intervention into a brand, see it, that it was in good hands, and we treat it well, and we respected what was before and we built it into good shape and of course things change and modify, but that it’s got a basis.
But these days, lots of ads all very, very similar. Not many campaigns. And interesting, Ellie, the amount of misattribution in certain categories is mind boggling. Automotive, we’ve got so many car brands out there, cannot tell the difference between the majority of them.
And I wonder if your listeners would feel the same. You drive past the thing, you see a front three-quarter picture of an SUV du jour, and it’s very hard to know who it’s for.
Gambling ads, well, they’re, they’re all the same, just of different kind of colors and hues, but there’s a lot of those around, and they just blend into each other, beer.
And my prevailing feeling, and it does seem to be a bit of a sneer, but it looks like it’s all come from the one creative department. And I wonder if they’re all just sort of geeing each other along, or creatively people too scared to actually find their own voice. So, they’ll kind of paraphrase or kind of follow what someone else is doing and they’ll follow the rhythm.
And you just see all the same kind of jokes circulating around. And I’m a great believer in the power of jealousy, and that may seem like a strange thing to say on the back of all this. But if I see work that I genuine feel so envious of, to me it’s stimulating exciting.
I don’t intellectualize work. I feel work very deeply, and I go, “God,” and it’s so motivating. Well, yeah. Look, and I find all the greatest symphonies and poems and artwork of the Renaissance and so forth, were all driven by jealousy.
And I think advertising could do with a little bit of that. And I just can’t remember when I last got jealous of the work. And I’ve been jealous of some of the budgets I’ve seen. And to me, it’s just my basic touchstone in this business.
And if conversely, I see something that I think I can do better than that then at least I feel that I’ve still got a place in the business. So, there’s two ways of going about it. The competitiveness that you have to have in the business and the jealousy to actually want to be motivated to do something better or feel sort of uplifted by something.
And I can do better than that was my kind of phrase, even getting into the business. I’d look at ads and I just go, “I think I could come up with that.” And that’s been always my driving force. And, you know, as a result, I’ve not lost my passion for the business. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been clearer in my thinking than I am now, because I’ve got a nice view from the past and to the future.
And I think the point that you raised before about awards and so forth, awards are a trap. And I think they are the wrong motivation for creative people. I’ve won awards and they’re just a slippery slope. And you win award this year. You think you compelled to win one next year, or somehow you’ve lost it.
But to me, and this may sound trite, but it’s what I believe to my very core, the biggest accolade is the average Australian knowing the work that I’ve done. If I can go anywhere, “Oh, you’re in advertising, what are you doing?” You can say, “I bought a Jeep,” or charts in the fashion capital, or all creatures great and small, or any of the things I’ve done.
And just the joy because they know the work. And it’s really the difference I think between writing ads and writing platforms. Platforms endure, ads come and go.
And I was really, really lucky if I can indulge. When I first got into the business I couldn’t get a job in Sydney. I’d come from Canberra and I tried to work in Sydney and I couldn’t get a job anywhere there.
And there was an agency that was opening up in Melbourne and for Sydney siders Melbourne was seen as the backwater of creativity. Backwater of-
Ellie:
Still is.
Sean:
Well, some would say no. I mean, but it’s ever been thus, and I don’t mind that tension at all, but I was so keen to get an advertising, I was willing even to come to come to Melbourne. And there was an agency that American agency, and they were called Dancer Fitzgerald Sample.
And they had the Toyota account and Dancer Fitzgerald Sample set up shops all around the world. They had a campaign that they’d written out of America called Oh What a Feeling, Toyota.
And so, I, along with a number of people who had joined the agency, I think the agency had only been open for about 12 months or so. I was one of the first people that wrote, Oh What a Feeling ads, wasn’t the first, but I was one of the first.
And I thank Toyota forever, for my career and that campaign forever for my career because it taught me everything I needed to know about advertising, which is how to create architecture, a template, in that day, the prevailing channel was television, but how to actually break down a television commercial and write to a format, to a template. And it was exhilarating for me.
And even though it got boring after a couple of years of writing Toyota ads, because the template would always be, it would start off with a clarion call, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah. And then it would be 12, 15 seconds of driving enjoyment. And at the end, the person who the car was kind of targeted to would get out of the car and jump in the air and go, “Oh, oh, oh, what a feeling.”
And at the zenith of their jump, it would freeze frame. Because freeze framing was quite a spectacular commercial television effect. And Oh What a Feeling, Toyota. And I wrote hundreds of scripts to that. But what it was teaching me was, it’s about the continuity, it’s about the repetition. It’s about seeding the brand name into the conversation.
And you talk about celebrity CMOs. There’s a guy there called Bob Miller, and he was legendary. He was there pretty much for 20 years. Oh What a Feeling as a campaign in America finished after 18 months, this has been going 40 years.
And someone put a shrine in Bob Miller’s honor, and all the people that worked on it. And Dan Fitzgerald Sample got eaten up by Saatchi & Saatchi. And it’s still within that holding company today, Publicis, I think.
And anyone that’s worked on that campaign knows the beauty of creating in a small box, it’s what I call the life jacket, not a straight jacket. Because when you’ve got that to hold onto, you’ll survive When you’re floating around everywhere, you’ve got nothing.
And if you can find the freedom to create within a frame, it’s very powerful. And again, example of that 40 years, and I tipped my hat to Toyota who kept that relentlessly. Because I can imagine someone would’ve said, maybe lots of people said, “Ugh, do you think we can get rid of Oh What a Feeling? Isn’t it a bit corny?” Whatever.
But it quickly comes around what’s corny then turns into something beautiful and nostalgic and important and part of the cultural fabric. And in the punchline of jokes.
So, and look, there are a lot of clever creative people in Australia, and we do punch above our weight. But our opportunities are a few by comparison to other markets. So, we have to build something that will last and have equity because that’s our job.
Ellie:
That’s fascinating. And I want to hold onto that thought particularly the last bit of what you said there in context of the clients. But before I do that, I want to pick up on something else that you said, which was really interesting for Toyota.
We only had one channel back then, it was television. Do you think proliferation of channels has helped or hindered what we’re talking about here?
Sean:
It’s hindered because people think you need to do different things in different channels. If you’ve got a great strong platform, it should be the red thread, the umbrella, the whatever you want to call it, the stitched narrative across everything.
People think, “Oh my God, we’re on TikTok, now we have to throw out all the rule books.” No, the beauty of a platform is that you can bring it into a TikTok, find the way that TikTok would do it, find the way that Insta would do it, find a way, anything, and make it work, bend the platform to the will of the channel and vice versa.
That’s everything. And when people go, “Oh, well, different platforms or different channels require different things,” that is arrant nonsense. This is yours.
Ellie:
I mean, this is you going directly against the prevailing wisdom. And there’s even a term for it, which is matching luggage, a derogatory term where, you’re just using the same idea in different channels. And people on TikTok aren’t going to see that you have to do something completely different. Don’t just do matching luggage.
I’m sort of simplifying it to make a point, but you’re just contradicting that completely. The threat is everything. If it’s strong enough, you should be able to bend it.
Sean:
Well, those people call it matching luggage. Obviously don’t have very good luggage and probably should lift their luggage game up a bit. But-
Ellie:
Work for Louis Vuitton.
Sean:
But people love to bat around you know, things you shouldn’t do in advertising and unwritten rules and puns and this and that, but there’s only one rule in advertising Ellie, but nobody knows what it is.
So, in order to just do the brilliant basics, if you’ve got an idea, enshrine it and make sure it goes across every channel. And if that’s matching luggage, then bring on matching luggage because with the availability that people have to give to you, you better make every channel count. And if you’ve got a substantive, clear ownable proposition or equity in something, you use it relentlessly.
Ellie:
I like that you talked a lot really eloquently about that and about that conceptually and about that creatively from an agency’s point of view. And you made that concept of jealousy is really interesting.
But I think the other thing I would add to that is, and we’ve said this word already, but I want to talk about a bit more, is bravery and courage of convictions. And that brings the clients into play.
I mean, who amongst us hasn’t seen the brief that says we want everything, we want to be challenged, we want to be done differently, we want a new platform. And then when it comes down to it, they won’t or can’t actually execute, the whole thing gets diluted back.
Are clients gripped with fear? I mean, are we breaking new marketing ground? I mean, what’s the … and are agencies being inhibited by clients? I guess, and I’m conscious that of course, you have your own clients, and I’m sure you have very respectful relationships with them.
So, I’m not asking for critiques of people you already work with, but I guess what works best with your clients and where should agencies be stronger and where should clients be stronger in this whole-
Sean:
Ooh, there’s a lot there.
Ellie:
I know there is.
Sean:
And this is not a caveat, this is generally hand on heart, what I feel and particularly owning my own business for nearly 30 years of my 40-year journey, I can’t tell you how incredibly indebted and humble I am to the clients I’ve worked with over the journey. I love my clients, and I’d do, not to invoke meatloaf, I’d do anything for my clients. But I won’t do that.
Ellie:
But I won’t do that.
State of Client/Agency Relationships
Sean:
But I feel so flattered, and I sometimes don’t think they realize what they’re getting with me and the team. Well, we just absolutely just absorb their culture and live it like it’s our own business. And when I say to clients, “I’m going to spend your money, like it’s my own.”
I think there’s a compliment in there, or a certainty in there that will be very shrewd about what we do. I love delighting clients. I think I’m in this business to see the look on the client’s face when they see some work that we do.
I think, it’s probably that, I don’t know, what do you call it, narcissistic or kind of — but I love delighting. I think if I wasn’t in advertising, I’d probably be a chef, because there is nothing more beautiful than cooking something for someone and serving it up to them.
And I think I serve up ads. I don’t serve up food, I serve up ads, and I love them. Having said that, the state of the clients today, the caliber of clients from book smart point of view is incredible. They’re highly skilled, very smart. But perhaps to your point, Ellie, a bit wary.
They want certainty, they want solid thinking and good plans and processes. But there is not a lot of discussion about standout creative. I haven’t heard those words said a lot lately. And if it’s a global brand, they tend to — and clients are doing this a lot lately, particularly the international brands, they tend to reference work from other done in other markets.
Often floating the idea of running it here in Australia, because it’s done, it’s easy. They haven’t had to go through the pain of … and they just kind of pick it up.
And even if it’s wrong culturally and or in every way, or not even matching the same style of the work that we’re running in Australia, because they’ve got it there and they can use it, they often do.
And what that says to me is a lack of, I wouldn’t say bravery, because I think, again, very smart, but when you’ve got it there and it’s certainty, they want certainty rather than uncertainty. But if you can embrace the uncertainty and work closely with your advertising team and your creative team, you’ll get something even better. But they’re just wanting locked and loaded stuff.
Ellie:
I hear your point about bravery, actually. And as you were talking there I mean, what goes through my mind is does that necessity start and stop with marketers to change, to think about their approach? Or are they being buried in the demands of other people in their organization? More and more? It feels to me like they are, if I’m honest.
It feels like there’s much more c-suite intervention, even though the marketers, even though a CMO theoretical sits on the c-suite. It feels to me like they’re being pushed around a lot more than they used to be. What do you-
Sean:
I can’t say it any better than that, I think there is a lot of pressure internally, and that’s a shame. And it’s a shame because I would argue that the majority of businesses in Australia, just the nature of our GDP and what we create versus what we sell should be marketing led businesses, and yet they’re often not.
But if more companies took a marketing view and, and actually asked their marketing to work harder for them and give them the support and the courage, you know applaud their courage. Because the talent is there some super smart people there. Then I think it’d be better.
But I think the enemies, well, I shouldn’t say enemy, is very political these days, but I think, yeah, there’s not that either confidence or will to let marketing do what it does best. The talent’s there, perhaps the courage just needs to be fortified a bit more.
Ellie:
Well, you know what? I also think that it’s also about the mark of letting the agency into the tent now so they can work together to get those results. We were talking offline before, and you mentioned the word fortitude, and I just came into my head there the analogy of the chef, whilst you can delight in serving up a good meal to your client where the fortitude comes in is where that client returns the meal time and time and time again.
Saying there aren’t enough potatoes. And the meat’s not cooked right. And where that’s coming from, often it doesn’t actually sit with a marketer. I think it sits with others, but I feel that sometimes the marketers for whatever reason, just won’t let — it just comes down to partnership versus transactional relationship with the agency.
To have an agency that can stand behind them and back them as opposed to just always just being in front of them, presenting stuff in the best-case scenarios can help overcome c-suite pressure or pressure from whoever to just do something that they don’t want to do. Did you used to be in that tent much more as an agency? Have you felt that over time?
Sean:
Yeah, I yearned for the days when I’d be there with the CEO and the CMO and you didn’t know where one started, the other one stopped. Virgin launching, Virgin was an incredible experience for me for 10 years, pretty much at the start of the agency.
I felt as close to Brett Godfrey and when Richard was over here, Richard as well as I have with any client relationship I had because I so invested in that, they invested in me, and it became something more than just a kind of a supplier arrangement. We were partners and we were true partners.
And I think cutting through all that, I think that’s probably where I’d land at the moment. See your agency as a partner, not as a supplier. See them as people that can actually make a profound difference.
And it costs no more to get great work out of them. There just needs to be permission to do so. And it’d be nice. And I think there are clients out there who have had great relationships with agencies and at all times they need to kind of continue to make that relationship an important thing. Otherwise, it’s just send me the work and I’ll have a look at it when I get a chance. And yeah.
Ellie:
I think, I mean, like any relationship, it takes work.
Sean:
It does.
Ellie:
And all that. I won’t go into the relationship analogy, but I will say every pitch I’ve ever worked on, every client I hope I worked with in my agency life, all of them have said we want a partnership. And the proportion with all due respect and the proportion of them who actually understand what that means, or are willing to really embrace that over a longer time than a honeymoon period after a pitch is diminishing, in my opinion. I don’t think those relationships exist as much as they used to.
Sean:
No. And they are like really triggering words for me because when I hear a client say to me, “We want a partner,” I go into another level of love and excitement for that brand because I know that they want the very best and my worry and my stress and my kind of swarming and the team swarming around the problem, they get it and then some. So, yeah.
Ellie:
And I think, look, let’s talk about that a bit more because I think we’re starting to touch now on what makes an agency lead tick in your case. I bet you that it’s what makes your staffers tick. Your team members tick as well will be that kind of intertwined relationship.
But are agencies being crushed under the hill a little bit of things like procurement, of things like clients who just are no longer able to build those kind of relationships? Are agencies suffering more from just burnt staffers who are just being told what to do? Or as an industry, are we shape shifting our way into a stronger future?
Sean:
That’s a lot.
Ellie:
I know. I’ve got to fit a lot in.
Sean:
I think all of the above is pretty true. And this is a confidence business. And when some agencies are up and about it, it’s the most exhilarating time in an agency. And it’s an important thing to feed.
Right now, probably more than ever post pandemic, the kind of the democratization of work hours and everything like that. Don’t get me started on that. Because I’ve been renowned for being a pretty strong evangelist for working from work.
But I’ve softened a few areas for a few reasons, but I think there’s been a lot of prevailing things that have happened that have changed the nature of the agency. The most corrosive thing for agencies is the inability for people to get together and actually collaborate and do work.
It’s a collaborative sport. And that’s been challenged every which way. And if agencies don’t shape shift, they will disappear. And we’re seeing that at the moment.
And I’ve sort of been muttering to myself just because the economy has been terrible, survive until ‘25. It’s my little kind of mantra that I know we’ll get through. We have an agency in New York that’s doing very well at the moment. And their economy’s been quite robust compared to ours. And that’s exciting.
So, I look at that as being probably 6 to 12 months ahead of where we are in Australia. But a lot of businesses in New York are saying, “Survive until ‘25,” and it’s good enough for me.
But yeah, sorry I’m sort of floundering because it just depends where you agency is in its maturity and its journey. And the younger fun kind of up-and-coming agencies would be having a hell of a time at the moment, really good time.
And there’s other ones that are probably just maybe a bit more middle aged and they’re probably struggling because they’ve got a lot of legacy brands, a lot of legacy people. And that’s tough because people are the only thing that matter in this business.
And if you don’t look after them or find elegant ways to cursor them through their career journey you going to have some very brutal conversations and it’s not fun.
So, yeah, I think it’s a very, very challenging time, but the corollary of that is, it’s also very exciting time because we’re inveterate problem solvers, and I think good agency people figure out new ways to administer great work for clients, however it presents itself.
And but some tough decisions have to be made to make sure you can keep the lights on and pay the people and get the work out that you need to get out. And it’s just a bit of a dog fight at the moment.
Ellie:
A dog fight. It’s a fight in the phone box at the moment.
Sean:
Sure.
Ellie:
We’ve had a trend of lots of new agencies coming into the market. A lot of independents being founded by people who have done the whole HoCo thing without all due respect to HoCos. And then they’ve decided to do their own thing. And I think, you’re right, the pandemic has fundamentally changed things and created challenges that maybe weren’t there before.
But I do think, I mean, it’s so interdependent of what we were talking about before. You have to have that — and you mentioned it there, you have to have the right clients to be able to do the right work, to be able to motivate your people so they don’t get stale. You also have to be paid the right money to do that.
Particularly when you have a more mature workforce. I mean, it stands to reason. And I think they are all interrelated challenges, and it makes it very, very hard, particularly when you do have marketers who aren’t necessarily in control of their own destiny.
Sean:
Very true. It’s a bit of a vicious cycle at the moment. And we’re only one part of the curve. But again, that’s what makes it exciting. I mean, you can’t have sunny skies all the time. And I think sometimes your character gets tested, your enthusiasm for the business gets tested.
But I wake up in the morning no matter what, sort of stage anything is at. And I really just love coming into work and seeing people that I think are incredibly clever and seeing how they go about applying their creativity. It’s just wonderful.
State of Diversity
Ellie:
Well, after 40 years, that’s amazing. I love that for you. I really do. That’s a great thing after so long in this business. Let’s shift gears a bit there. Let’s talk about diversity. There’s lots of talk. I
Sean:
I agree with it.
Ellie:
Good, good. Pro-diversity. There’s lots of talk. There’s lots of outrage.
Sean:
Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Ellie:
Particularly, I don’t know if you saw the campaign.
Sean:
No.
Ellie:
That’s a joke, by the way, particularly in the last week or so.
Sean:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Ellie:
Look, are we truly prioritizing diversity enough, in action? And the Campaign Brief was a recent example, but I’m not just thinking about women here. Of course, I’m thinking about ageism, I’m thinking about indigenous Australians, I’m thinking about people with disabilities.
And I’m also thinking not just about representation agency staff, but I’m also thinking about how diversity is portrayed in the work that we do in the advertising that we put out there. Where do you think we’re at?
Sean:
Well it’s all about optics, isn’t it? I mean, one picture in a trade publication looks bad. I mean, as bad as it could be because it just had everything wrong with it. And if you wanted to serve up a motivational piece to get people really responding, that was it.
And again, it might be controversial though, but I don’t … and I’m not sure that though that that is the real picture. And maybe it was just poor judgment on the editorial side of things.
We aren’t lacking women by the numbers that I’ve seen. I’m not sitting here going, “Oh, I reckon,” by the numbers I’ve seen, were not lacking women. But if you want more in leadership, it takes time. Because there’s an interesting, and again, this probably flawed logic, but the youth in the industry is not waiting around long enough to qualify them for leadership skills because they’re dropping off and doing other things.
So, we’re getting this replenishment of these perennial 28-year-olds, and they never age and they never date and everything, but they’re different people. People are not sticking at advertising long enough to qualify and prepare them for a life in leadership.
And that’s the bit that’s missing. You can’t just sort of parachute in someone of those positions unless they’re qualified. Having said that, there are a lot of qualified women, and I think it’s just an expanding base, and we need to be better at recognizing and holding up those people.
But by the numbers, it’s not as dire as that tone deaf picture probably would’ve indicated. And that may sound like everyone’s pushing their bullshit buttons there, but I think more temperate, cooler heads will go, “No, there actually are a lot of women in the business. It’s just, can we develop pathways to make sure they stay in the business, grow and build on the equity that they create in their career and get rewarded for the wonderful work that they do.”
And I don’t know where the blockage is. I’ve been pretty pro women my entire career because I just think they’re smarter, better, nicer, cleverer than men are. If there ever was a boys club, I certainly wasn’t invited to it, that’s for sure.
So, I think it should be less about those kind of constructs and more about just making sure that everyone has got a chance. Because I think equal opportunity is just kind of a equal opportunity to prove unequal talents.
And if people can be on the same footing and show their unequal talents and their brilliance, then it’ll be better for everyone. And I mean that for indigenous people, for people with disabilities and ageism, which is kind of a funny one for me and I think we were talking offline before about ageism.
And I do wonder that if I was working in another company that wasn’t my own, whether I’d still have a job and on the assessment of me as a person and my kind of fairly robust way of going about work, I reckon I’d probably be managed out quite a long time ago. Phew, at least I can hold down a job in my own agency.
But I think there are challenges for people of my age, I’m heading up towards 63 now. I, again, haven’t felt sharper than I do now, but yeah, I represent symbolically something that maybe a lot of people don’t think deserves support or encouragement.
And it’s a shame because I think there are some brilliant, brilliant minds there that are that deserve to be employed. In the other the other areas you’re talking about, we just need to do better with indigenous Australians, people with disabilities ongoing.
And I think the world is helping those cohorts get closer to us than ever before, but we need to reach out and help them along as well. So, yeah. But it’s just hopefully just a cultural thing, and hopefully it takes a shorter time than it probably seems to be now.
Ellie:
Look, I mean, it’s a massive topic, right? There’s a whole-
Sean:
Yeah. Thanks for that.
Ellie:
No, look, why not?
Sean:
I stumbled through there for five minutes. Yeah, thank you.
Ellie:
Look, I think the Campaign Brief stuff, a lot of the responses that you’ve seen have been, “No, no. Let’s shout out all the women that are actually brilliant in this industry.” It was completely tone deaf. It was a kind of, how did you miss this moment when I looked at it for the editorially speaking, how did you miss this?
And I agree with you that and it’s shown by the response, you name all these brilliant women who many of them are in positions of leadership, which is fantastic. I am an advocate of playing the right person in the right role regardless of gender.
However, there does need to be a leveling up. And that’s the sort of … there are women coming through, but they’re behind because of historical challenges and historically being held back.
And even if that’s changing now, it’s not done. That’s not a job done. And I think there does need to be a leveling up. And I think with women in this industry that has at least started. With indigenous Australians and people with disabilities, we’re not even-
Sean:
Not even close. Not even close.
Ellie:
Like you said, we can’t solve it in this discussion. But leveling up is something that needs to happen with across all of these cohorts. I think we’re further forward in some than in others. And the celebration of all the brilliant women that are in this industry as a backlash against the Campaign Brief has kind of started demonstrating that.
It’s obviously not job done, but yeah, so much to do with leveling up. I mean, it feels a bit while we’re just talking, but the more people that speak out about it-
Sean:
Absolutely.
Ellie:
And take action around it in terms of the programs they have in their agency, the staff that they’re welcoming in. The way they’re casting and writing for people who are diverse. So, not something we can all solve, but it’s collective effort, right?
Sean:
It’s just something that you have to just do. And again, talking about it can create this sort of conditioned lethargy. We spoke about it; therefore it was done. You got to do it. And you got to be proactive about it. And again, I’ve been very fortunate to always have strong, capable women as partners in Cummins&Partners.
And in my creative career, even before Cummins&Partners, literally every art director I had, bar one was a woman because I just related to women better. Because I’m not really big into the machismo and macho sort of side of the of the business. I’m a little bit gentler in my sort of worldview.
But yeah, I always just found it easier and more expansive to work with someone that was different to me in every sense of the word. So, that’s where it’s always been more fruitful for me.
Ellie:
But I do also think that … I’m very fond of remembering the old cliche that in advertising and marketing, we’re not saving babies. However, one of the closest areas where we do as an industry get to a biggest point of responsibility to broader society is in the way that we portray females, males. Gender diverse people. People with disabilities in some of the very powerful messages that we put out there.
Some of the very powerful advertising that we put out there, they’re seen by millions of people. And I think we can and should be much more conscious of that.
Sean:
Yeah. Agree.
Ellie:
Of not writing lazily, not falling into tropes, not casting badly. All of that stuff. And bringing it back to the rest of this conversation, the closer relationships we have with clients, the more that we can that we can lead and influence there, I think that is actually a societal thing that this industry can contribute to. And it’s rare that I say that. Frankly, we are not saving babies.
Sean:
No, it’s exactly right.
Ellie:
And it’s very easy to get caught up in our own echo chamber and our own sense of importance. But in that area, I think we really do have a responsibility.
Sean:
It sort of reminds me of how powerful cultural moments, and this is getting older now, but I remember when Hamilton first came out, and I saw it in New York, and it was a story of the founding fathers, and all the founding fathers were white and bewigged and powdered and primped and leading quite a nice life with all their slaves and everything like that.
But to take a story and have all the cast be the complete opposite, to do it through rap, to do it through brilliant writing and a clever performance, that’s stuck with me today. That you don’t have to cast to a stereotype that you can tell the story and project the story through any human being of any volition, of any characteristic and any hue.
And that should give us all hope. And I think advertising lags behind a little bit, but the brave one will get the spoils.
Ellie:
The advertising lags behind it was exactly what was going through my mind as you talked there. And in entertainment, and the creative arts, Hamilton’s a really interesting example. I also love what I see. I mean, I’m not a fan of Bridgeton, but I do love-
Sean:
Oh, me too.
Ellie:
The fact that Bridgeton cast people of color wherever they want to, regardless of what “history” would’ve shown purely because they can, and like you say, you can tell that story.
Sean:
You can tell that story.
Ellie:
And you are inherently giving a positive message just through doing that. Through casting strong characters and advertising does, I would love to see. I know it’s a different form and I know, but we are still sending messages out.
Sean:
It’ll happen.
Ellie:
With the tropes that we put out with lazy advertising.
Sean:
Yeah. It will happen. It just takes time. And again, we will push that initiative because it’s right. It’s also compelling. And if you can’t capture that and see that as a boon to your message, as opposed to something else, then you’re missing a trick. You’re missing a very big cultural trick here.
And I’m largely very proud of Australia for being so culturally diverse, for being the nation that we are. Because there are other not such great examples of cultural diversity that are not working out well. And yeah.
Ellie:
No. Look, I agree. And we’re very lucky to live in Australia. Having said that, it’s not like it’s job done over here.
Sean:
Not at all. Not at all.
Ellie:
So much prejudice and I guess I’m referring to myself here as much as anything else, but so much prejudice in society comes from societal norm and learned behavior, and the media creative arts, all has a massive influence on that. How you’ve seen things historically is what you’re brought up with. And the more we can do to change that, the better. But anyway, we’re getting-
Sean:
No, but that’s a really good point. I mean, it’s interesting, we were talking about drag before in another context. And this is not apropos of you and your journey, but what I love about diversity is that a bit like the Bridgerton model, a bit like the Hamilton model. Theater is now being for want of a better expression, dragified.
And it’s exhilarating because drag performers are phenomenal. They have their own pastiche and their own thing, but they’re doing some amazing things. Some of the best shows in Broadway now, are drag related.
There’s a fantastic show in Sydney, I don’t know when this will come out, but it’s called Titanic. And it’s a drag show on steroids. It’s a musical, it’s fantastic.
And there’s another show in the U.S. called Mary Todd. And again, it’s drag influencing the conventions of classic theater. Not just musical theater, but classic theater as well. And it’s exhilarating to see other people taking the form. And that form can only change through diversity. And therefore, the form of advertising can only change through diversity.
Ellie:
Couldn’t agree more. Well, now I’m just going to show you my jaw and just-
Sean:
Come a bit closer.
Ellie:
I’ll lean in and give you a free shot, the final thing we’re going to talk about-
Sean:
Where would you like me to pop your — I’m not a violent man.
The State of Pitching
Ellie:
I’m going to open myself to judgment and criticism. Let’s talk about the state of pitches. I mean, we were swinging deep waters just then with cultural diversity. Let’s just paddle up to the shadow in a little bit.
And much as pitches are important and new business is important, where are we? What’s the state of pitches today, Sean? What frustrates the hell out of you and what do you see that’s any good?
Sean:
Well, I think pitches are what they are and they’re in necessary evil, so I’m not going to have a swing in any way, shape, or form. But I think some of the criteria upon which agencies are being judged, I would argue, and if you follow my thread, there’s one question that sort of bothers me because it has its place, but I think it gets too much weight on it.
And that is the question of what recent campaigns have you done in X category? Now you can ask that question and probably still will long after I’ve gone, but it goes against my philosophy, my entire philosophy about enduring campaigns, I would like it maybe as well as if not, instead of, I would like it if you asked, what campaigns have you done that have lasted 5 or 10 years?
Ellie:
That’s a fair shout. Yeah.
Sean:
Yeah. Because through asking that question, you would plumb how deep the agency goes in terms of its ability to create long lasting platforms, which again, is my kind of area of enjoyment and what we offer.
It will plumb continuity of the client relationship. It will show that the agency doesn’t put its needs before the continuity of the client and the rigor of the client. And it kind of dramatizes those things. And it also shows the relative tenure of the staff as well, which I think used to be an important part of it. How long have you staff been around for?
So, I think one of the questions I’d like to see in maybe something you do in the next little while is what campaigns have you done that have lasted 5 or 10 years? And it’d be interesting to then say, are those people still here? Who created it? Tell us about the journey. Tell us about the sales results.
Because anything you’ve done recently is unproven. It’s just now. And if we want to judge on what’s now, they may get lucky, or it may be an absolute failure. So, I would’ve thought it would be important to see agencies that are connected with something that’s successful. And generally speaking, long lasting campaigns provide that trajectory.
Ellie:
That’s interesting, isn’t it? I think there’s a lot of perception. So, when I run these pitches I’m sort of halfway to where you are talking about there, I will ask for case studies. I won’t specify recent; I’ll just say case studies.
And I also want to know about tenure of relationship with clients which is really important because it does show a lot of positivity, but I don’t go as far as to ask. And I’m learning here as I’m thinking about this, I don’t go as far as enough to ask you and tell me something that you’ve done that has had campaign that has had that length of tenure.
And I don’t know whether I’m doing that because I just haven’t thought about it. Or is it the overwhelming sort feedback I get back from clients is if it’s not recent, there’s a question mark. But it does talk to everything we’ve been … where we started this conversation which is what value do you place on consistency of application? And consistency of thought versus what’s new.
Sean:
And building on the equity that you create. Because every time you are throwing a dollar at a new campaign and then changing that campaign next year to something else or something newer, people are likely to go, “Well, that just went up in smoke.”
But if you are building on an equity base you’ve created over a period of time, then it becomes an investment rather than a cost. And yeah. Look, I totally agree with you about case studies. Case studies are phenomenally important.
But we’ve been tripped up lately on bids that we’ve come through because we haven’t had recent campaigns in certain categories because in certain categories there may be only three or four players of note in that category, sometimes only two in the category. And you haven’t worked on them for a while.
I think experience is much overlooked. And I think creators of long-lasting campaigns, I think there needs to be more value placed on them because again, my philosophy on advertising, that’s just it.
Ellie:
I mean, again, this is just my own direct experience and it’s something I counsel clients on all the time too, sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. But the skill set involved in creating strong advertising can transcend category.
So, I’m constantly saying to clients, “Think more laterally than I want to see (let’s just imagine it’s a retail client) I want to see retail case studies. If they don’t have retail case study, I want to …
No, hang on. Think about their people, think about the other work that they’ve done. Think about the threads that are running through the agency that are not necessarily tied to whether or not they’ve had a retail accountant in the last 12 months.
Because by definition A, we need to think more laterally than that, B you are narrowing the field of available agencies for a start. Quite significantly. And you start to run into impossible conundrums around, well, if they’ve got a retail client on their books, then that makes them well qualified.
But you don’t want to work with a competitive clash. So, well, there has to be at least 12 months out. Well, okay, so how does that work if …
Keep thinking laterally about that is something that I’m constantly preaching. But genuinely, I’ve listened to that comment about “No, no. And longevity of campaigns as well.” I think it’s a really important thing. But I do get frustrated with sort of, well, they must have. And sometimes it’s driven by procurement. I mean, I know some great procurement people. Let’s be clear.
Sean:
I’d like to meet them one day. No, no, no. I don’t. Sorry, procurement people. Let me take the heat out of that by saying the procurement people who are internal in an organization are there to get the best deal possible and to drive the negotiations to the cheapest possible outcome. And I don’t think that’s either unfair, it’s not particularly snarky from up. I can kind of understand what’s going on.
But if you can start to get them to value things a little bit more, it could work in your favor, but procurement is a fact of life. I wish it wasn’t. When you think about the incredible value that advertising can bring to a client brand, and what price do you put on a beautiful idea that lasts for a long time. I mean it almost should be a licensing fee.
Because, yeah, we did a campaign in the last couple of years for a high-profile client, but not a lot of money. And we’ve cracked something that we know is going to be there for years. But their procurement people internally just wanted to bring down the costs.
And the minute you get challenged on costs when fundamentally you’ve presented with them a very long-lasting idea, there’s an element of resentment. I mean, we’re not robots. There’s an element of resentment where you go, “Hang on, this is already winning you industry awards. Your peers are recognizing it. It’s had an economic benefit to a tune that is not some puffery. It’s literally gazed in your reports. And you want to save 10 grand on the next internal video.”
I wish people with just a bit more respectful to the real value that’s created here.
Ellie:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve been in the industry for years talking about this stuff. Value output as much as it is cost input. And again, we win some of those battles. We lose some. I do think the dynamic between the marketing team and the procurement team is a massive factor in this.
There needs to be some constructive tension there. Otherwise, procurement just runs rush shot over it. And those people as individuals are targeted in certain ways, but if there’s not a marketing team to stand up to them, that’s where you get problems. I couldn’t agree more. We are going to be here another hour and a half if we talk about that more.
Sean:
No, I have nothing further to say, your honor.
Ellie:
Hey Sean, thank you so much.
Sean:
Thanks, Ellie.
Ellie:
You’ve been really generous with your time and with your comments. I thought that was a great discussion.
Sean:
Thanks.
Ellie:
Good luck with all things Cummins&Partners.
Sean:
Thank you. Thank you.
Ellie:
And we’ll probably see each other across the pitch room at some point.
Sean:
God, I hope so.
Ellie:
You can tell me again that my case study question-
Sean:
Yeah, just say what have you done in the last five years? That’d be great. Thank you, Ellie.
Ellie:
Thank you.
