Kerrie Spaargaren is the founder of Graffiti, a brand experience agency that has worked with many of the most well-known names in Australia. Kerrie and David discuss the discipline of brand experience, the post-COVID world of brand experience, the need for ideas to be achievable, and the rapid advances in the measurement of brand experience effectiveness.
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But often, they start quite small, and that’s really up to us to then give them that confidence and show those results that they do more than that. And that’s probably the success story.
Transcription:
David:
My name is David Angell, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
And remember, if you are enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
So, today I’m joined by Kerrie Spaargaren, owner and founder of Graffiti, fast-growing brand experience agency in Melbourne.
Welcome Kerrie, and thanks for joining me.
Kerrie:
Thank you very much. Good to be here.
David:
So, I want to start with what must seem to you like a really basic question, but do you know what, so I think there are many different answers that I’ve heard certainly in my career.
So, what follows is going to sound like a bit of a dumb thing, but I do want to start with your definition of what brand experience actually means.
It’s one of those areas that many agencies claim, they do claim to have it. And it probably means something very different to what it meant even 10 years ago.
So, talk to me about your definition and how things have evolved during your time running Graffiti.
Kerrie:
Okay. Well, I guess at Graffiti, we explained brand experience by saying it’s building a real connection between brands and audiences in the physical world.
And I guess that could be done in a number of different ways. It could be activations, events, installations, exhibitions, roadshows, launches, digital tech, and immersive experience. It’s just a raft of different options there.
And it has changed a lot in 20 years as we were just talking about 20 years ago. And I think we’re going back to that time it was probably more activations and sampling. And it was a bit fluffy. I guess that’s how it was. And actually, I started and I was doing more sales promotions. That’s how I got into the business.
But things have really changed now because marketers have lots of options. So, what they want to see if they’re doing a brand experience is the return on investment and measurement. And that has really come a long way.
And we at Graffiti are really focusing on doing that because I feel like in doing a brand experience, it can be very expensive depending what you’re doing. It’s not always expensive, but if you’re doing custom builds and using tech and things like that, it’s expensive. So, it’s really competing with a lot of other channels.
So, what we are doing, which I think is really, really interesting, and we are working with some global experts in the measurement in footfall tracking sensors. So, this is data that’s collected through smartphone signal.
So, if you’ve got an activation, you can actually measure how many people are there, how long they engage with your staff. In our reports, we can get heat maps and journey maps as well.
So, it’s really interesting for marketers to see what are the popular areas and how they can improve in other events as well. Because often it’s not just one-off brand experience. It might be something that we are doing continually.
And they can also, now, which we are investigating is provide demographic breakdowns. So, that is really interesting.
It’s really scary that all of this information is obviously being tracked through your smartphone. But I think this is what is just really important for us to provide these reports.
So, that’s what we are really encouraging clients to do. And we need to really understand what the objectives are, obviously, to be able to put the right practices in place.
But also, on top of that, we really rely on our in-house promotional staff, our brand ambassadors. And there’s a number of ways that they can really capture information as well. So, sometimes it could be lead generation. So, they will make sure that people provide that information. And we’ve got the lead generations.
It could be just brand sentiment, it could be discussions, it could be box pops, or some research surveys as well.
So, we have a really great team of brand ambassadors. We’ve got about a 100 brand ambassadors on our books. So, we make sure that we really have the right staff for the right projects as well. So, we do the recruiting, the management, it’s a big thing.
But I’ll talk about that a little bit further, but we feel like that is a real point of difference as well. Because at the end of the day, you’re spending a lot of money, months and months planning, and the people on the ground who are at that forefront are representing the brand.
So, we want the right people there and getting that information that marketers are looking for as well.
David:
So, it’s interesting. I think the information that marketers are looking for, I think we all know what that is.
Well, two questions actually. Do they get surprised when you tell them that you now, can measure like this?
And also, does it change or how much does it change what you need from them in terms of briefing?
Because presumably, you need a lot more information than you would’ve done previously. You’ve just been talking about your staff being much more professional, much more briefed, and much more.
So, presumably, you need to push clients quite hard to give you more information than they perhaps were anticipating. Is that-
Kerrie:
Yes. Well, and that’s why we work really closely with clients to get all that information at the beginning and really go through the consumer journey as well. Well, where do you want people to go? What do you want in certain areas?
Like every brand experience is quite different, but the more information you’re given, the better result we can give as well.
But I feel like it is great for clients to be able to wrap it up in reports as well and go back to their superiors to say, “This is how many people are at these events, and this is how many people came through our space, and the type of information that was achieved.”
And it can be done for event organizers as well, so that they can report back to their sponsors. I think it’s quite fascinating and it’s something that we’ve really needed in our industry because otherwise, it’s hard. We are competing with so many different channels that this really does drill down.
David:
Yeah, I was going to say, I think it must help marketers to sell these projects internally. I mean, they’ve got their own stakeholders, they’ve got people who need to sign off their budgets, presumably just them knowing that you can build that gap to ROI, which wasn’t there before.
Kerrie:
Yep.
David:
Presumably means that projects are — easier is the wrong word, but it’s maybe more straightforward than they would’ve been to sign off in the past.
Kerrie:
Exactly. Yes, yes.
David:
Okay. Well, in the more recent past … that’s a good segue. See what I did there? In the more recent past, we’ve all experienced the pandemic now. Wow. For you guys, that must have been really hard. I mean, no one was even allowed anywhere near any kind of event, let alone a sponsored one.
We’re now, seeing people back on the street in, I think, record number. I mean, I was in the city over the weekend, you could barely move for people. We’re recording this close to Christmas, so it’s going to be busy, but even so, Melbourne is absolutely buzzing.
So, I’m guessing for you guys having come through that incredibly tough time, which it’d be interesting to hear about, intuitively I think there must have been a big rebound.
Have you seen the dynamics of brand experience change as a result of COVID? Have you observed any differences in how much consumers want to engage? And has there been that sort of bounce back now that people are out back on the streets?
Kerrie:
Yeah. Well, you are totally right. It was a horrible time. Such a horrible time. Back in 2020, we were still part of WPP, I can remember that day so vividly. We were activating at the Grand Prix, at Formula One. Because it was open for one day before at first.
David:
Of course, that was one that got shut. The gates got shut and the … oh my gosh, that was yeah.
Kerrie:
So, it was on off, on off, it was just all through the night and in the morning. And then it was okay, major events are closed. So, we had to get our staff out of there as well.
All my staff were just answering phones because all events moving forward were canceled. And it was March, so it was summer. So, we had a lot going on.
And then we told on that same day, “Take your computers and go home.” It was pretty extraordinary and something that we never want to ever experience again, obviously.
But coming out of it, there was hesitation and I guess it was understandable from event organizers because they had lost so much money over that time. It was stop start, stop start until it was pretty obvious that the COVID threats had gone.
So, it was the general public were ready to attend all of events. And I think anything anyone went to, tickets were sold out. People were there. It was so exciting. They were craving that engagement. And I guess everyone wanted to get away from virtual events.
I think they halted fairly fast. Put screens away and go out and actually just have a really good time and enjoy.
So, it’s been really, really busy in those two years. So, we’re very excited about that. And we’re not looking back.
David:
No. Well, I mean, look, I made the comment because COVID obviously comes up quite a lot in these podcasts, but I think relative to the industry, you guys, a lot of agencies were still able to at least function. They were still able to make adverts. They were still able to buy media. You can’t put on an event. And that’s it.
And you’ve got a lot of people. You just talked about your ambassadors, they’re all reliant on you for their living. So, yeah, I mean, that must’ve been really hard.
Did you get much involved in developing virtual events when-
Kerrie:
We did a few, not too many. I mean, we had to try to pivot really quickly, but we were about a third of the size that we are now. So, we weren’t a big team.
And we also had clients in other states. So, it was really quite interesting. Even though we were within our five Ks, we were still able to do so many events that were …
Like we were doing Super Netball for HCF is one of our clients. And it’d be like, “Okay, we’re in Queensland.” “No, it’s gone to WA now.” Like we’d have to pivot really quickly. And we’d had staff there that could manage. We had supervisors and things like that.
We also did a lot of work for Volvo, and they were in New South Wales as well.
It was as soon when Sydney shut down that was really an indication that Sydney is the world. It was Australia. Like Melbourne, we think we are, yeah. But we’re not-
David:
But we’re not.
Kerrie:
We’re not really. So, then obviously we’ve done a lot of work for TAC for many, many years. We did use it for some time for planning as well. So, that was quite good.
And with those brand ambassadors, it was interesting. We had to evaluate how many hours they’d done with us over the years and we were able to still put about 40 or 50 people on job keeper as well. So, that was really appreciated too.
David:
I bet it was.
Kerrie:
They’re mainly uni students, so.
David:
They’re reliant to buy their noodles and buy their food and stuff. I mean, we’ve all been there. Yeah.
Kerrie:
So, it was interesting. Yeah.
David:
Yes, indeed, it was. Well, let’s talk then, I mean, you just said you were about a third of the size you were. So, clearly there’s been a lot of growth in the last couple of years. And we touched on this a few minutes back in terms of building the bridge to ROI with brand experience.
And in my own experience working at various different types of agencies, some clients are quite scared of brand experience, I think. And not just because of ROI, it’s a really intricate execution. The perception of risk and the effort involved.
And I had clients in the past sort of saying, “Oh yeah, it’s great that you are trying to do this, but we would have to do so much work for this as well. And we’re not staffed up for it,” and all of that kind of stuff.
How do you best mitigate for those kind of challenges? And do you have any great conversion stories where someone was really just not wanting to play and you managed to convince them otherwise?
Kerrie:
Well, I guess one thing first of all, what we think is really critical for, like we can certainly understand why new clients would be stepping on a few eggshells before they take up brand experience.
But what we think is really critical is making sure it’s a specialist brand experience agency, which we obviously are, but making sure that they’ve got in-house production and creative as well.
And really experience within the space because there are so many things you need to know. It’s really quite, you need a lot of knowledge and experience. And you need to be very pragmatic and react quickly and put out fires and things like that, as you can imagine.
So, we feel like that is really important. And also, being able to manage the experience from end to end.
So, that’s what we do and we really pride ourselves on being able to do that and be experts in that area. But we are process mad. So that, as you were saying that-
David:
Intricate execution was the-
Kerrie:
Yes, yes.
David:
… the posh way saying it, but yeah.
Kerrie:
Yeah. But we love it. There’s so much rigor and planning around everything we do and anything you do, there’s OH&S, and there’s training, and scoping, and testing. And if you are using new technology and things like that, you don’t want to rush into these things because things can go horribly wrong.
So, we take our clients on that journey with us. We are very transparent as well with them. And we also manage expectations because you’ve just got to know, especially if you’re doing something outdoors, you got to have a backup plan, especially when we’re here in Melbourne in December-
David:
Of course, yeah, four seasons and-
Kerrie:
It’s meant to be summer.
David:
That’s right. I’ve got my umbrella in the car. Yeah.
Kerrie:
Yeah. So, we work really closely on the consumer journey as well. So, we make sure that they’re very involved in that. Which we found works really well.
David:
Presumably you’ve got to bring other agency partners along on that journey as well sometimes.
Kerrie:
Yes. Sometimes you’ve got to bring specialists. And we’ve got a really great network. That’s a good thing in having such a … I’m so proud of the team that I have and they’ve come from different areas as well. So, they come and bring their expertise and their network. And we do love that.
Like we are very honest with clients as well. If we’re bringing in a specialist, we can’t do everything, but we will still manage it. We will manage them and make sure that everything is as seamless as possibly can. But you asked the question, have we-
David:
Oh, conversion stories. Yes.
Kerrie:
Yes. Well, I guess everyone who comes to us knows that they’re coming to us for a brand experience because that’s really the heart of everything that we do.
But often they start quite small and that’s really up to us to then give them that confidence and show those results that they do more than that. And that’s probably the success story.
And we love that when it’s started as a really tiny client. And then we can say, “Look, where it is now.” And sometimes you’re a bit reticent with those tiny clients.
So, yeah, we are really happy to be able to do that. And again, it goes back to the measurements, the ROI, so that they can be really convinced with it, I think.
David:
So, I mean, you mentioned specialists and yes, you’re working with specialists, but I mean, I regard you as a specialist as well in your field.
What advice would you give to marketers who are considering experimentation with brand experience and why choose a specialist rather than the experienced team sitting inside their agency? We sort of talked at the start, a lot of the larger agencies have them.
And what’s best practice in terms of getting the best out of you and as part of the broader campaign?
Kerrie:
Well, I guess it depends what they’re looking for as well because there are so many different levels and scales of what you’re doing. We would always say, come to us, clearly. I could hear-
David:
You would, yes. This isn’t the sales vehicle, but yes.
Kerrie:
Yeah. Well, I feel like it was just another thing that I was actually going to mention, which I feel is important to the events is with the staffing side of things as well. And having staff within our books that we recruit, we train them, and we manage them. And we also involve clients with them as well.
So, if the client wants to do the training, because it might be some really intricate things that they need to be able to communicate to the target or the audience. It’s good to involve clients as well because some things are quite complicated.
David:
Yeah. I mean, that it is really important, isn’t it? I guess from a client’s point of view, there would be nothing more disappointing than all of the intricacy involved in executing something.
Only to then go and check it out and find a monosyllabic teenager on the stand who can’t answer the first question about the product, for example. Right?
Kerrie:
Yeah, yeah.
David:
You guys must have to work really hard in recruitment to not have happen.
Kerrie:
Well, it sort of goes back about 15 years ago when I started working with TAC. Obviously, the so many pillars, the understanding TAC is quite an intricate thing. And we did use different agencies. And I would just be there just berating people because I could see they weren’t interested, they didn’t care.
Kerrie:
Okay. Still there, okay. So, I just wanted to talk about in-house staffing. Because I feel that that is an area that is quite unique and it gives clients the comfort of knowing that we are doing the recruiting, the training, the management of these people as well.
And they have the opportunity to select them, meet them, and also in some instances, be involved in the training as well.
Like for example, when we do work for Volvo. There’s a lot to learn about electric vehicles. There’s a lot to learn, so we actually include our brand ambassadors in the training and then make sure that we use them for multiple events because I think that is really, really important.
But when we did start doing it, it was probably 15 years ago when I first started working for TAC and we just wanted to make sure that we had people who had their heart in the job as well. And that’s what we’ve had some amazing staff over the time. Obviously, a lot of them move on because they get real jobs.
David:
Like they often do, start their own agencies, yeah, yeah.
Kerrie:
Yes. But we felt that that was just really, really important. And having those people on our books and they’re either performers or brand ambassadors and supervisors.
And again, I feel when clients spend so much money on a brand experience, they want to know that it’s executed and delivered really, really well and they’ve got the right people presenting their brand.
David:
Okay. So, in terms of advice you’d give to marketers considering experimentation, I mean, what would be your checklist? What would be your top sort of five things to really think hard about? You’ve mentioned specialists and making sure there’s a good specialist network.
Kerrie:
Yes. I feel like that you need to, certainly from a production point of view, you want producers there that have experience in this field as well. So, that is a critical thing. You also need creatives there as well.
But it’s probably the producers that at the end of the day, they’re ticking all those boxes and making sure that everything is done. And even from engineering point of view and those elements, that’s really quite critical.
In-house we think is the best thing because also a lot of the times you may have your events on weekends, you want those people to be contactable and you want to make sure that there is some loyalty to whoever they’re representing as well.
Because it would be terrible if there was a huge thunderstorm and then there’s no one answering their phones. You just need to know that staff have that team there who are dedicated to the projects there.
And also, you want to see the processes that they’ve got in place. And I think that is a critical thing that we see. You want to see all of the OH&S and that complete plan as well is important.
David:
Yes. That old saying that execution is nine-tenths of the law, I think that applies to your area probably more than anywhere else.
I mean, some in your case studies I see doing things like shutting down Bourke Street Mall and being a tennis court in the middle of it is you don’t just rock up on a Saturday morning and get that done. Right?
Kerrie:
No, that was a big start to the year.
David:
Yeah, no doubt.
Kerrie:
That’s for sure. And with a project like that, there’s a lot of stakeholder management as well. You can imagine shutting down the mall, shutting down the trams for 24 hours, et cetera.
And you’ve got City of Melbourne and you’ve got … well, Myer was the client, but then you also had all the other retailers who had to sign off on it as well because they’re in the mall. And that was a big one.
David:
Your little black book must get tested quite a lot, no? I mean, for all of the intricacy of process, I’m guessing after 15 years, it’s about knowing the right people to call and having established relationships with people must be really important, particularly from a permit and an OH&S and all of these other things that you’ve got to consider in any given situation.
Kerrie:
Absolutely, absolutely. And we always decide to treat whoever works for us really well. We’ve always made sure that they’re part of our family there, because often you get these jobs and you haven’t got a long time to turn them around as well.
So, you might need to find contractors very quickly and you want people who want to work with you and are treated well. And that’s really important to us as well.
David:
Okay. Well, let’s talk about the future. What excites you at the moment? What’s your vision for the future in terms of how consumers are experiencing the brands they love with you?
Kerrie:
Well, I feel like we are all seeing a lot of really exciting projects all around the world, aren’t we?
David:
Yeah.
Kerrie:
They’re popping up everywhere. So, I guess it’s about new technology and getting new clients involved and experiencing it. And also, looking at brand experience as part of the overall campaign.
Because it doesn’t have to just be on its own. It should be really integrated into everything else that is being done. So, that’s really exciting.
But I guess one of the things for us is as well, like we like collaborating with other agencies as well. And some of the best projects that we have done has been working with either PR agencies or creative agencies.
But it’s about getting involved at the beginning or as soon as possible. That’s always the best. When everyone can actually have some inputing to making sure it is delivered.
David:
Is it a common challenge that you get sort of-
Kerrie:
Sometimes, sometimes. But also, there’s a challenge I think mainly with some of the bigger agencies. They might come up with something, sell it into a client, but they haven’t done the due diligence.
And we would never do that if it’s one of our projects. We make sure we’ve met with engineers, et cetera to make sure it is doable because that’s the worst thing. Exciting a client and then it can’t be done or it can’t be done for that price and it’s not going to look anything like what the concept was in the first place.
David:
I’m smiling if you’re saying it, Kerrie, because I think as someone who runs quite a lot of pitches, I’m guessing that some of those ideas have come out of a winning pitch agency or a winning pitch and the honeymoon period starts and stops very quickly if they then can’t deliver that picture idea properly.
Kerrie:
Exactly, exactly. So, we always just make sure that we’ve already made sure that it can be delivered.
David:
Yes, which is obviously quite important. So, I promised you one final mystery question. And I’ve been thinking about that as we’ve talked and you’re obviously very passionate about the clients that you work with. What would be your dream client that you haven’t worked with and why?
Kerrie:
Okay. Well, I guess what I’m like we are really enjoying at the moment is seeing clients who are being brave. And that was certainly what Myer did with us, with the tennis court. So, that was great. A lot of excitement there.
So, in saying that, I think Red Bull would be a great client. We did tip our toe in the water where we did F1 a few years ago, but that’s really exciting as well. So, I feel like that would be a client we’d love to be working with.
David:
Well, Red Bull, F1 Australia, if you’re listening, there’s someone here who’d love to work with you.
Kerrie, thank you. It’s been really interesting to talk to you. I think you work in a really, really fascinating part of the marketing ecosystem. And clearly one which has a lot of potential to really shift people’s perception of brand, which is what so much of marketing’s about.
So, all the best for the future. You’re obviously growing at a frightening rate. And who knows, you might be winning an award for Red Bull anytime soon.
Kerrie:
And I guess there’s something that I didn’t mention, which has been quite important over the last two years. That we are now independent. So, it’s funny, in 2024 is our 20th anniversary, which is huge, but it’ll also be our three-year anniversary.
And I do feel like it is a new agency now, because I’ve got a great leadership team where everyone is just so invested in the business and really being able to do things our way and not worry when we are putting on some new specialists in different areas.
We do have to worry because it all comes down to the money at the end. But it’s really nice to be able to look at the business and see what does the business really want? And just work with such a passionate team of people. So, I love the culture and the team that we have.
David:
Fantastic. Well, that’s a great positive note to end on. Happy third birthday and to many more.
Kerrie:
No, we’re going to go to 20s. We have to have a big party this year.
David:
Yeah, indeed.
Kerrie:
And also, the clients, we’ve had great clients and I need to thank them for their support because we love working with them.
David:
Okay. Alright. Thank you, Kerrie.
Kerrie:
Pleasure.