Jenni Dill, the Chief Marketing Officer of Arnott’s Group, Imogen Hewitt, Publicis Groupe Chief Media Officer and Spark Foundry ANZ CEO, and Toby Aldred, Saatchi & Saatchi Managing Director and Chief Client Officer of The Neighbourhood, share their ideas and observations on how the model has evolved over the six-year partnership with Arnott’s and what the ingredients are in a successful integrated model partnership.
The Neighbourhood is an integrated agency model developed by Publicis Groupe Australia and New Zealand for Campbell Arnott’s six years ago. Soon after, Campbell’s sold Arnott’s to private equity firm KKR. So what makes The Neighbourhood the high-performing agency model that won the Grand Effie for the ‘Life’s Little Moments’ campaign and achieved an ROI that put Arnott’s in the top 10% of FMCG campaigns?
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And I think that’s the beauty of the model versus some of the other bespoke full agencies that have been set up is that you can move talent in and out as needed for their development, but also, for the development of the team on the business.
And you’ve got that flexibility versus trying to take people out of a hotshot agency and drop it into an unknown brand-new entity, and they get stuck
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management Consultancy, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you’re enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom from our guests each week.
There are villages of agencies, there are bespoke agencies, and there is The Neighbourhood, an integrated agency model developed by Publicis Groupe Australia and New Zealand for Campbell Arnott’s six years ago. Soon after, Campbell sold Arnott’s to private equity firm, KKR.
My guests today are responsible for navigating the marketing success of the Arnott’s Group. Please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, the chief marketing officer of the Arnott’s Group, Jenni Dill.
Hi, Jenni.
Jenni:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Darren:
You’re welcome. And the Publicis Groupe chief media officer. Since we last spoke, this is your new role, isn’t it? And Spark Foundry ANZ CEO, Imogen Hewitt. Hi, Imogen?
Imogen:
Hello, how are you?
Darren:
Congratulations-
Imogen:
Thank you.
Darren:
… on the media role.
And last but by no means least, Saatchi & Saatchi managing director and chief client officer of The Neighbourhood, Toby Aldred. Welcome, Toby.
Toby:
I’ve forgotten the ability to speak there. Yes, hello, Darren. I was going to say, or should I say g’day because I have recently passed, with a hundred percent grade, my citizenship test.
Imogen:
Hey, well done.
Jenni:
Amazing. Congrats.
Toby:
So, g’day, folks.
Darren:
Welcome to Australia.
Imogen:
It still doesn’t sound quite right, but we can probably practice a little bit.
Toby:
G’day.
Imogen:
It sounds more natural from you as good day.
Darren:
Do they give you a eucalypt or a banksiaor something now at the ceremony, or?
Toby:
I believe you get a packet of Tim Tams.
Darren:
A packet? Excellent.
Imogen:
It’s appropriate.
Darren:
Couldn’t be more Australian than that, could it?
Jenni:
Welcome to Australia.
Darren:
Now, look, let’s start, because six years is quite a long time. And often with bespoke or agency models like this, there’s not a long history of success for many of them, but six years and quite a lot of success.
Jenni, what do you put that down to?
Jenni:
Firstly, I mean, I’ve been now, four years as part of this model, so I can talk to the most recent four years quite in detail.
What I would say is that we’ve got a really good open dialogue and a really good level of trust, particularly amongst the three of us.
And I think the bespoke model and the integrated model allows us to ebb and flow our resource plan each year as our business needs change.
And I think that’s at the heart of everything we do, is you can have the right positive proactive conversation about what the business problem is, what the business needs to then figure out the right solutions. And that can be different over time.
So, it allows the relationship to grow almost versus some other agency models where you are very fixed in a static model that gets stuck, and it gets stuck in history.
And then what happens is people wake up in six years time and it doesn’t fit what they need anymore, and then they get divorced.
Instead of having the conversations every year about what’s different, what’s changing, where do we need to be focusing more better differently as we go forward?
Darren:
Yeah, Jenni, that’s such a great point because you see so many relationships that the annual review is, well, where are we last year and what’s the incremental change up or down going forward?
Imogen, that must be interesting from an agency perspective, having that sort of openness and being able to then plan for the year ahead.
Imogen:
Yeah, I think it’s quite unusual and I think that is testament to the longevity as well because it requires, as Jenni said, a lot of trust, but also, really greased wheels in terms of the way that we all work together to collectively solve a problem.
What tends to happen in my experience is that different agencies come to the table with a degree of quite understandable self-interest in those sorts of negotiations, and you end up with a bit of a stalemate.
We are able to look at it from the perspective of what does Jenni need and where do those resources sit across the breadth of the agencies.
And then how do we best build something which is going to over deliver on what she needs that keeps us all happy, and healthy, and doing the right thing, and the numbers moving in the right direction. But from the point of view of client need first as opposed to agency need first.
Darren:
Yeah. Because I mean, that’s the other thing, Toby, you’re not only managing director of Saatchi & Saatchi, you’ve got this chief client officer for The Neighbourhood. So-
Toby:
Chief cat wrangler.
Darren:
I can imagine if it feels like that.
Jenni:
Who are you calling a cat?
Darren:
But that’s part of the job, isn’t it? It’s quite a unique position having that chief client officer role on one client across multiple agencies. I mean, I think in some agencies, they have head of client services. But you are overseeing this whole relationship.
And so, when Jenni’s talking about what are my needs that are changing, it’s not just for the creative component or the media. It’s for the whole thing, isn’t it?
Toby:
Yeah. Firstly, I would say it’s a great gig. I feel really lucky actually because I have one foot in Saatchi, which is I’ve grown up through creative agencies and I love that.
But this gives you a whole new mindset of growth and all conversations you always wanted to be in. I’m now, in. So, that’s just my little selfish doff of the hat. Love the role.
But the role is fascinating because actually what it allows you to do is to connect a village of experts. I would never describe The Neighbourhood as an agency. It’s a connected platform of expertise. All The Neighbourhood does is sort of signify this unified spirit, this unified culture.
I’m by no means the only leader at play and it’s really important to me to be able to play in with the leaders of the creative agency, the media agency, the PR agency, the shopper agency.
I’m just there to help try and pull the strings and identify areas that can deliver growth for Arnott’s and deliver growth for Publicis Groupe. And I feel really confident saying that with Jenni in the room because that’s the spirit in which we operate and move.
Darren:
Well, so, the client success is your success.
Toby:
Yeah, definitely.
Darren:
And it’s reasonably successful. I mean, a Grand Effie for both the agency and for you, Jenni, must be a feather in the cap.
Imogen:
We thought it was reasonably successful, yeah.
Darren:
Because you’re understated. Is this a humble brag?
Imogen:
We may just be having a slight go at you for saying reasonably successful when we were very self-congratulatory, appropriately with that, because it’s an epic thing.
Darren:
I was going to say, we’re not on LinkedIn now. You don’t have to play it down.
Imogen:
No, not playing that down. There was a lot of high fives for several days, weeks. Maybe not months.
Jenni:
And I think it came six years into the relationship. So, you think about the pivot we made sort of two or three years ago, and it’s really starting to bear fruit in terms of what we’re supporting and how we’re supporting it.
And the work that the entire groupe’s done together on the media side, the creative side, and the client side. Particularly on that particular piece of work. It was like we all one team.
And I think everyone who was there on the night and saw us up on the stage saw that. You couldn’t tell who was who in the zoo.
Darren:
Yeah. Which is fantastic because to Toby’s point, your success is their success and vice versa. So, such a great win.
It also solved a business problem in a way. I imagine when you’re sitting there as a CMO for consumer-packaged goods and you’ve got lots and lots of product range and a budget, the danger would be going down a path of trying to push the lead brands at the expense of the others or trying to work out where to invest.
This idea of building the Arnott’s platform with the … what was it called? The life’s little moments, really smart. Was that something that was created together? Here’s the business or marketing problem?
Jenni:
Yeah. I mean, the business problem was really clear. We had a massive portfolio with this amazing legacy of products and brands that we could not afford to support. That was the problem.
How do we tap into and remind Australians of just how good those Iced VoVos are, or the Caramel Crowns or the Mint Slice? There was no way in the world we’re going to be able to afford to support all that. So, we really had to look to the master brand level to do it.
We still invest in Tim Tams and Shapes as our two lead brands. And we have a really good solid plan behind those two. And they’re doing spectacularly well on the market at the moment.
But the master brand piece was literally necessity being almost the mother of intervention. We had to find a way to do something differently and you couldn’t go down the legacy way of, we had to have bespoke communication for every single one of those products because it was never going to have the right reach, the right impact, or the right results.
Darren:
I mean, it is amazing. You walk into any supermarket, and we know how tough the supermarket business is in Australia, but Arnott’s manage to range a sizable proportion of that aisle, don’t you? I mean, it must be hard work from a marketing and a sales perspective to keep that presence.
Jenni:
Yeah. I think sometimes people look at market leading brands and go, “Oh, it’s really easy to stay there.”
And I would say that it takes just as much work, if not more, to actually stay in a really good market position as it does to be a challenger brand. Sometimes it’s easier to be a challenger brand because the only way’s up.
And I think we had to build confidence in the business that we could continue to grow at a really good rate.
We had to build confidence in the business that our products that were invented 50 or 60 years ago or more, were still just as relevant today, but we just had to find the right way to connect with consumers.
Darren:
And I know this is unfair, but how many products off the top of your head are there? Because like-
Jenni:
I do not even know, I keep finding new ones every week.
Darren:
Well, I mean, I thought, “Oh, just check.” I thought I had a good handle on how many products you have and the list just seems to go on and on and on.
Jenni:
Yeah. It’s a long, long list and there’s some amazing products in there. Things that have haven’t changed in 30, or 40, or 50 years, but we just had to find a new way to bring them to people’s attention and to make sure that current Australians gen love them as much as my grandparents’ generation did.
Darren:
Well, that’s one of the things I liked, Toby, about the creative execution was those moments. And one of my favorites was that squeezing the-
Toby:
Vita-Weat worms.
Darren:
Yeah. The Vita-Weats with the worms. Well, I call them the Vegemite and butter worms because as a kid, I did that and then licked them off.
But yeah, there was all those little moments in there. It must have been fascinating watching the creative process of coming up with all those little life moments.
Toby:
It was great fun. I love the way Jenni describes it as confidence because there’s very few Australian brands that have such great provenance and belonging in everyone’s homes.
I always say when someone new joins a team, it’s a privilege to put your thumbprints on this whilst it continues its merry journey into its 160th, 170th years.
And there’s every reason why it should be a really confident brand, but it had maybe just lost a little bit. All these great snacks that people will have grown up with and sort of almost positioned as if they’re at the back of the cupboard.
And all we had to really identify was what’s the basic human truth going through a cultural point in time, and then what are the product truths? And the two came together really nicely.
So, the human truth was we were coming out of lockdown. Lockdown had helped re-identify actually little moments in life of the things that we really value. Like literally a cup of tea with your neighbours, your sister’s kids coming around and running around in the background. Like the small, small moments that we take for granted.
So, we knew that that was a real cultural moment in time and that we could take advantage of because the product is super relevant in those small times. Like you don’t have to force the product in. There’s no issue here of how do we make the brand exist.
And then the little twist on it is the rituals that one has with those biscuits and snacks. And you’ve identified one there straight off the bounce. And there’s-
Darren:
Yeah. And look, the other one I loved was the father and the daughter having the tea with the tiny-
Toby:
Yeah. Tiny Teddys.
Darren:
Tiny Teddys, the tea party. I mean, there was so many in that ad that just made you go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” Like over and over and over again.
Toby:
I don’t want to monopolize the mic, but there was one which is worth recalling because there’s a auto hoover vacuum that goes through the TV.
Darren:
Oh, yes. With the TV snacks, yeah.
Toby:
And the creative team were particularly proud that they’d come up with that. And when we pretested the work, someone else in the group went, “That’s exactly what my kids do.” So, there were all these layers. Which is a lovely rug pull because that’s a nice thing to do.
So, yeah, I think it’s just even if they’re not the ones that are shown, people can relate to the fact that you have a bit of fun in these moments. And I think that’s why it’s resonated so well.
Darren:
Imogen, like we’re sitting here talking about the creative, isn’t it always the way and then no one says, “What about the media buy?” But you did get huge cut through, didn’t you? And huge reach.
Imogen:
We did, we did. And I mean, slight diversion, but one of the beautiful things about working in this team is that it’s not a media plan at the end of a creative deck. It’s involvement from the outset.
Because you can’t come up with campaigns like that, that have enough flexibility, and format, and channel, and the ability to be in market for the length of time that they needed to be in market if you’re not having that conversation with your media experts from the get go.
So, small plug for the nature of working in this sort of team, but equally, yes, enormous reach, 52 weeks of consistent activity. Biscuit buying doesn’t have a particularly long cycle. You need to be present and top of mind as much as you can possibly be.
You need to have a message that’s got real resonance and cut through. You need to know what the context that you’re going to put that in for it to really live and breathe.
And so, it was a really combined effort to get all of those elements to work as one. And hence the kinds of results that you see.
Darren:
So, the thing that I couldn’t find online was all the 15 second cutdowns. Did they exist somewhere?
Imogen:
Six second cutdowns.
Darren:
Six seconds. Wow.
Imogen:
Yeah. So, that we could extend some reach into digital as well.
Darren:
Yeah, of course.
Imogen:
Yeah. But there’s multiple formats. It’s one of the beautiful things about it. It’s very modular, so we can keep adding things to it and using it in whichever duration or space it needs to live in without it being a mammoth task to recreate things or to have not thought of something that we then think that we need after the fact.
So, all of that thinking upfront makes for yes, a very effective campaign, but also, a very efficient one.
Which to Jenni’s point, we were not in a position to be having individual campaigns for the so many hundreds. No one’s actually sure how many hundreds there are, but products that exist in the portfolio.
Darren:
Well, I stopped counting, so that’s why I was hoping someone knew, but that’s fine.
Jenni, the interesting thing from my perspective is also, this is quite Byron Sharp, isn’t it? Mental availability, physical availability, getting your distribution right. And then to Imogen’s point, just be constantly in the mindset in that purchase consideration.
Jenni:
Yeah. And we didn’t pick up a marketing theory playbook and said, “This is what we need to do.” We just knew that we had such a massive opportunity to get more impact with more consumers, more of the time, across more of the portfolio. And that was the very clear portfolio and business challenge that we set.
And by thinking through the creative and building these moments of rituals and the human insights in, and the modularity that we built in, it allowed us to do all of that.
Which for me, again, we are not on a white good purchase cycle or a car purchase cycle. We are in the supermarkets every single week on the shopping list getting purchased.
So, we had to find a way to be that relevant with our consumers and reminding them much more often of just how good our products are.
Darren:
Because it is a very competitive category, snacking, I think. Is that the-
Jenni:
Macro snacking, yep.
Darren:
Yeah, macro snacking. So, that’s an area that a lot of players are in there competing. So, that’s the other thing. And some of them with bigger budgets as well. So, competing and delivering a Grand Effie is certainly a great achievement.
Jenni:
Yeah, we’re all pretty proud. I think it’s a testament to the work of the team and to the results we delivered. And I think everyone’s super proud of the Grand Effie.
Toby:
I think also, sorry, the only thing I’d add is that we’re super proud of the Grand Effie, but that was about 18 months into the campaign. This is definitely a platform with longevity.
And I think that’s another thing the three of us are completely united in, is having platforms that are given a proper period of time to wear out. Probably not going to be a problem, but full blown wear in, we’re big believers in.
So, I’d like to believe that they will continue to see really good results off the back of it. But it’s definitely an ethos that we collectively buy into.
Darren:
Well, it is interesting from that point that you make because we do see campaigns get killed before they’ve even had a chance to wear in, to your point.
But also, that seems to also happen when CMOs marketers change agency and change direction. The fact that you said you came into the role three years ago. The Neighbourhood and Publicis had been appointed six years ago.
As a new CMO, there was no sense of well, come in and throw the baby out with the bath water and start again. Was there?
Jenni:
No, I mean, I’m not-
Darren:
You’re not that sort of CMO.
Jenni:
I don’t work that way. I think I’m far too loyal human in terms of the way I work, but-
Darren:
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Jenni:
No, there isn’t. But the philosophy I’ve always had was learn about the team you’ve got, figure out what’s working really well, and then figure out what you need to be doing differently to get the business working.
In my experience from a client, you lose 6 to 12 months of work in a pitch process or in a change process. We didn’t have time for that. I’m going to be completely frank.
We had a really good team. We had some really good work on the table, and we had ways to make it better, faster with strategic refresh and focus and focusing on the media plan and the creative at the same time.
So, we had some really strong areas of opportunity that were right in front of us versus a 12-month delay process that consumed my entire team on figuring out where to go and what to do differently.
There was no reason to move. And it would’ve just been ego of the CMO that would’ve driven that decision. That’s not the way we-
Darren:
And I think that behavior of constantly chopping and changing is one of the things that undermines a lot of the credibility for those CMOs.
You’ve clearly taken a long term vision here with these brands, building a platform and working with the agency to actually execute that. I mean, the three of you are sharing that vision, aren’t you?
Imogen:
Yeah, absolutely.
Toby:
Humble brag on Jenni’s behalf here, but there’s a lovely phrase Jenni uses, which is about continuous improvement. And that is an absolutely shared culture between the two.
That’s where you got is a total partnership, because we all feel very comfortable if we think something, if the game needs to be raised slightly in someone else’s camp, it’s all in our own interest to be able to raise that conversation with each other.
And you know you can do it in the total confidence that we’re all viewing whatever the observational comment might be about, just the collective continuous improvement of the group.
And that is a real cultural gene that Jenni has inserted inside Arnott’s and inside The Neighbourhood. Probably why it makes it one of the joys of working on it.
Darren:
It’s interesting the name, The Neighbourhood, and I noticed before, Toby, you said a village Neighbourhood, because I personally don’t like the term village. When people say to me, I’ve got a village of agencies, the reason is I usually say, every village has got the idiot. Who’s-
Toby:
Who knew we were taking turns to hear that out, now?
Darren:
Who’s the idiot? And they usually look blankly at me, and they go, “Well, if you don’t know, it could be you.” It’s always a danger.
But I unlike the sort of metaphor of The Neighbourhood to a point you made earlier, Jenni, which is about (oh, I think it was you, Toby) people coming together-
Toby:
You’re going to make a good point.
Darren:
… as needed.
Imogen:
You did make a good point. Several, in fact.
Darren:
Yeah. Been unbelievably insightful so far. Let’s hope it keeps up.
Toby:
There’s a time limit, Darren.
Darren:
But now, you’re an Australian, everything’s possible.
Toby:
Yeah, that’s right. You’re right.
Darren:
But this idea, how do you work as far as you’ve got the Saatchi & Saatchi team. You’ve got the … well, I get imagine you can draw it from any of the resources, from any of the different media agency brands, or is it mainly from Spark Foundry?
Imogen:
It’s a Spark Foundry client, yes.
Darren:
Okay. And from your perspective, because a lot of this is chemistry, isn’t it?
Toby:
Yeah.
Darren:
So, when you do make those changes, how do you manage that? How do you manage fit? How do you manage personality as you move people around? Because there is some moving pieces here.
Toby:
Want to have a go.
Jenni:
Well, I would say, from my perspective, it all starts with the business objectives and what we’re trying to achieve. And I think a lot of that has a bit of ebb and flow over time as you’ve been plugging away one thing for two years and you’ve got to get onto the next thing and then the thing after that.
So, I think that the nature of the work changes over a long-term relationship, and that will mean that the teams and the type of work needs to change with it.
In terms of chemistry, though, we only like good humans on our business. And you’ve got to be able to have frank, open, and honest conversations.
And you’ve got to be able to do it objectively without it getting personal, or without it getting heated, or without getting defensive about it. You’ve got to talk about whatever the problem is and make it as objective as you possibly can.
And when you’ve really got the issue on the table, then you’ve got the best chance of solving it when you’ve got really smart, really motivated people sitting around the table with you.
I think if there’s games being played, or half-truths being shared, or agendas or anything, that’s when it all falls apart really quickly.
Darren:
Because I can feel the connection, the chemistry between the three of you. I’m just wondering next layer down and next layer down, not that we necessarily work in very deep high writing-
Toby:
Jenni doesn’t pay for layers, no. Very thin line.
Darren:
Very thin, yeah. We’ve all crushed the hierarchy, so it’s only two or three layers. But there can be those interactions that happen outside of your purview that cause a problem. What’s the usual way of solving it?
It gets escalated and one of you goes, “We’ve got a problem here, let’s fix it.” Or it doesn’t happen? Because I don’t believe it doesn’t happen.
Imogen:
There aren’t too many examples of any individuals doing things that are not okay. There are sometimes situations where something hasn’t performed as well as we would’ve liked it to. And there needs to be a bit of a postmortem about what’s happened.
But it is, at this stage, this many years in, there is a very high level of trust and belief in those conversations are to find out how to get better. They’re not to find out who did what wrong.
And I think that is the biggest part of the culture that’s been built. We do a lot of self-reflection. We have a lot of conversations about what’s working and equally conversations about what’s not.
But it probably did take, I’m going to say maybe 6 to 12 months for us all to really believe that there is no agenda outside of, if something’s gone wrong, let’s work out how not to do that again. And let’s work out what we need to do to make the result better and better and better every time.
And so, there are people that have been a part of this team now, for most of those six years, and they have a very fundamental belief that you see something that’s a bit broken, you raise it, we collectively solve it. That’s in everyone’s best interests.
Darren:
That’s brilliant.
Imogen:
So, do things go wrong? Of course. We run complicated businesses, but we solve them.
Darren:
And look, if things don’t go wrong, there’s almost a belief that maybe you’re not pushing hard enough.
Imogen:
Well, maybe you’re not trying hard enough. Exactly. I agree.
Darren:
So, the good measure of any organizational structure is how efficiently it gets to the bottom of what the going wrong is and resolve it to your point, without finger pointing, there’s a problem, let’s solve it. I’m just interested in that appears to be from what you’re saying, we’ve got to.
Jenni:
And I think that comes with building relationships. So, my team is here every Tuesday. Most of my team is here rolling through all the various meetings that we need to roll through.
We also, with our big post analysis that we do, both internal insights and external providers, we do it together so we’re all learning at the same time.
So, we have that common objective shared platform for, we just saw a full post analysis on a particular campaign or a particular project or a launch, and we’ve all got the same understanding and then we all figure out what to do from there.
We all have very different roles in solving it, but we’ve got to start with that shared understanding. I think that’s really important.
Toby:
And it probably, doesn’t happen overnight. You build that culture over time. I’m sure-
Darren:
The parent team strategy doesn’t happen overnight, but it will happen.
Imogen:
It does happen.
Darren:
I’m sorry. See, an advertising line that just entered business and gone forever.
Toby:
I’m sure that between the three of us, when we’re adding members to the team, you make sure that it’s someone who has the right cultural feel and that’s a really important part of it.
But there’s a bit of trial and error and we’re all human, and occasionally mistakes are made, but as long as you’re raising it with one another … I do feel really confident if meeting’s gone slightly wrong and I’ve not been in the meeting.
Imogen:
Someone will tell you.
Toby:
I’ll be told about it. But I’d much rather that because it means the majority of the time I’m not hearing about it, but I do know when the call comes in, I better sort it out.
Darren:
Nothing like being blindsided, is there? “What do you mean?” Interesting.
And you made the point, Imogen, that some people have been working on this for as long as from the agency perspective.
I’d imagine there’d also, be a need around the table of having that consistency, but also, bringing new perspectives in. Because that’s where a refreshing approach comes in as well.
Imogen:
I mean, Toby can probably answer this better than me, but I reckon there’s about 50/50.
So, around about half the team that’s been long tenure years and have really deep understanding of the business, which is really important if you’re going to be part of a team making decisions on behalf of that business.
And then a further portion of that team, about half that have probably come in and gone out over the course of the same six-year period. So, there’s a pretty good balance of depth of knowledge, depth of IP, and fresh thinking.
Jenni:
And I think that’s the beauty of the model versus some of the other bespoke full agencies that have been set up is that you can move talent in and out as needed for their development, but also, for the development of the team on the business.
And you’ve got that flexibility versus trying to take people out of a hotshot agency and drop it into an unknown brand-new entity and they get stuck really quickly because they can’t get promoted or they can’t move off onto another piece of business to keep fresh.
So, I think the model that we’ve got, which gives us really good deep knowledge on our business and what we need but the right freshness of thinking, and the right progression between layers and experience levels is really important.
Darren:
Yeah. It’s a balancing act, isn’t it? You want that consistency that you also, want refreshment of ideas-
Jenni:
I don’t want group thinking.
Darren:
Yeah. Which often happens we’ve noticed this in long term in-house agencies because people to your point, are bought into it. They’re working on one client day in, day out.
And that can work for some people, but particularly strategic and creative thinkers, they like lots of challenges. And that’s the thing you want to tap into it does, is having access to bringing some fresh approach into it. But not losing that knowledge of the business.
Toby:
This is going to sound like a sales pitch. To those clients out there, this is a sales pitch.
Imogen:
That’s embarrassing.
Darren:
Should I ring a bell? This is a warning. This is not a paid advertisement.
Toby:
At the beginning of the conversation, we’re talking about The Neighbourhood being an agency. It’s not an agency. It is a combination of connected experts across media, creative, PR, shopper, and the digital, whatever else is in the group that Jenni and the team might need to be pulled into it.
But the benefit of that if I look at the Sparkies and the media team that work on it, they’re part of Spark, which is a big growing, very successful media agency with hundreds of really interesting people and lots of clients.
There’s a full diversity of thinking within their remit. They’re not in a narrow pool of, “Oh, I’m one of the three media experts in The Neighbourhood.” It’s much, much broader and the same in the other agencies as well.
So, the ability to have that variety of thinking and leadership beyond three of us in this room and mentors is really, really available. It’s not just Neighbourhood parked off in the corner. Actually, you really are connected to the full group.
Imogen:
No, it’s really important because they’re then exposed to all of the training that happens in each of the individual agencies. They’re also, exposed to all of the training and growth opportunities that exist across the whole group.
So, it is a balance, and it is a bit of a best of both worlds sort of scenario because there is exposure to all sorts of interesting thinking that’s happening all the time.
But the Arnott’s business provides a pretty constant stream of interesting things to think about in and of its own right. So, all base is covered I think from that perspective.
And this might be something that you wanted to talk about at some stage, but I think it’s interesting and probably worth noting that it’s also, a highly desirable piece of business to work on.
And so, one of the things that I have noticed happens with agencies that are individual, and they’re sort of set up for a distinct purpose or they’re in-house, is you do sort of run out of a bit of runway. And you might not necessarily always end up being the most attractive place for talent.
But there’s all sorts of reasons why The Neighbourhood is a really highly valued piece of business to work on, which makes a big difference to everybody, I think.
Darren:
Yeah. And that’s an interesting concept. And, Jenni, from your perspective, you must have seen and realised that when you are the client of choice in an agency, you do get a better level of engagement and a better quality of work.
Do you consciously think about what it means to be … because it’s not just having the hot cool brand, is it? It’s actually the ways of working that you give the agency the sense of they are making a difference.
Jenni:
Yeah, I think so. I think the other thing I would add is that I spent most of my career working for global multinationals where there was always layers above me who had opinions about everything. We make decisions in the room and we get on with it.
And that’s really refreshing as a way of working where you don’t have to go through 28 different layers of meetings to get something approved.
I mean, we bought the little moments campaign in the first creative presentation meeting. It was that simple. It was one of three ideas presented. We all looked at it and said, “That’s the one. That’s it.”
Darren:
Tick, tick, tick.
Jenni:
“Let’s go.” So, I think the ways of working piece and the ease of doing great work, I think helps a lot for a business like ours that’s a legacy business, that’s got a lot of history. But we can make decisions quickly and we can get into market quickly with a lot of the work that we’re doing.
And I think that’s an attractive piece of the business for a lot of people. Not for everyone, again. Some people like spending two and a half years working on a particular piece of creative. I’m not that person. I don’t think the people we’ve got working in our business are that way inclined.
Because I think there’s a pace that comes with FMCG that we need to reflect through the way we’re working. And that doesn’t mean throwing out the strategy and starting again. It just means keeping things fresh and keeping things going.
Darren:
I do remember at the time that you took the appointment at Arnott’s, you said one of the attractions was to work for one of the world’s biggest private equity firms because it’s a culture that encourages making decisions to get results. And that still stands today clearly from what you just said.
Jenni:
A hundred percent. I think the beauty of a very different business model for me was massive learning without needing to travel the world every other week. Which was a huge, huge saving on my personal life and work life balance.
But I think when you start dealing with people who are investors, they have a very different way of looking at ROI models and marketing mixed models.
And they have a very different way of looking at setting of budgets versus a global multinational, which would typically say Australia is X percent of the global revenue and X percent of the global profit therefore can have X percent of the global budget. And that was kind of the maths.
And it wasn’t about how you can grow the business or what kind of return on investment you could deliver. So, I think the stakes changed, definitely.
But the real reason obviously, for joining Arnott’s is it’s a brand I grew up on. And it’s a brand that we knew had so much power and a portfolio that just had so much scope and there was so much we could do with it because there’s still plenty of growth run room left. And that’s what we’re excited to get after.
Darren:
And do you think, Toby, that’s what the team see in working on Arnott’s, that possibility?
Toby:
Absolutely. I just jotted down alI of the making decisions to get results quotes because that feels like that’s behind every single interaction that we have when you are presenting thinking, and plans, and creative work, and you are united behind the reason why you’re doing it, and it is to create impact and results.
And we all know that we’re going to see that through and we’re going to share at the end. It’s not something that’s just said in the room and forgotten about. It does give you an easy point to rally around.
The other reason why people love working on it is just the nostalgia, the legacy, the goddam shear yumminess serving on its product. Of which there may be somewhere between 30 and 80.
Darren:
And the 27,000 cartons of Tim Tams that get delivered as a product sample.
Imogen:
It’s also true. I was just going to add-
Darren:
Better than beer.
Toby:
Depends.
Imogen:
For me personally, better than beer, yes.
Jenni:
Time and a place for everything.
Imogen:
There’s also, a team of people that get to see much more closely and in a much more respectful environment typically, what the other disciplines add to the puzzle.
So, you end up with people that are very good at understanding what a creative team need to do their best work. What a media team need to do their best work. What contribution we can make from a PR perspective, the shopper perspective. How all these things work together to enhance one another.
And that’s quite difficult to do if you’re in more of a baton pass sort of structure. So, I also, like to think that part of the attractiveness of the proposition for our people is that they end up being much better rounded professionals themselves with a much higher level of insight and instinct around how other people do great work.
And that is in everyone’s benefit, if you can find a way to kind of propagate that sort of thinking.
Jenni:
And from a client side, I would say I’ve worked in village models in the past and-
Darren:
And idiots.
Jenni:
No, no.
Darren:
Not that you’ve mentioned. No names.
Jenni:
I don’t suffer fools.
But what I found was that we ended up being either the referee or in the middle of a hub and spoke model.
And I don’t think there are too many clients these days with people sitting around twiddling their thumbs going, “Hey, let me go and talk to agency A, and then agency B, and then agency C, and try and pull all that work together myself.”
We actually need the agency to be connected in that way to deliver the work that works across all facets of the brief. I don’t have the team size to be doing that ourselves.
Darren:
And it is quite time consuming. They’ve also, achieved, it seems the thing that a lot of agencies are trying to do, which is bringing that media and creative thinking together. And to varying extents, we’re seeing a lot more of collaboration and cooperation happening.
But it’s very hard for a media agency as you don’t have just your creative partners in your holding company or group, but you’ll also, be working with creative partners independent and all sorts of things.
First of all, Jenni, from your perspective, is this working as well as you would think it would work as a Neighbourhood model?
Jenni:
From my perspective, I think it’s working better. It’s working better than models that I’ve had in the past.
Darren:
I didn’t want to lead you there.
Jenni:
No, no, no. And the reason I would say that is I think in the past, I’ve had a lot of, I’m going to call it agency scope creep. So, everyone’s trying to grow their business-
Darren:
It’s a good term.
Jenni:
… and try to expand their scope. And then we spend a lot of time talking about should media come first or the creative idea come first.
And my answer to that is, none that stuff matters. What’s the business problem we’re trying to solve? Why are we advertising? What’s the best way to solve that? And then the work flows from there.
And I think all of the other stuff just is stuff that gets in the way of the work itself. And as long as you keep going back to the business problem and what you need to do to solve that problem, then I think everything else just flows pretty seamlessly from there.
Scope creep, which discipline comes first? Those things are futile debates almost. It’s a time waster.
Darren:
Yeah. It’s the end result and how you get there as quickly as possible.
Imogen, is that the same from your perspective or from the team’s perspective inside Spark, having that close access with the creatives? Is that an experience that they don’t get to that level with other relationships? Or do you try and deliver that with every relationship you have with other agencies?
Imogen:
Well, of course, we try and deliver that with every relationship.
I actually think, and I’m sure Jenni wouldn’t mind me saying this, the people that are experienced at working in models like The Neighbourhood are better at building those kinds of relationships with partners that are external to Publicis because they understand it better.
And because they have, as I said earlier, a real insight and an instinct for what great work looks like from other disciplines.
So, I think there is a benefit not just to earn it, but there’s a benefit to lots of our clients in having people that are really well versed in what that looks like and how you do it. But is it a little easier within these four walls?
Darren:
It would have to be, wouldn’t it?
Imogen:
Yes, of course it is. Because I can pop over and say, “Hey, Tobs, we have a problem, or we have a challenge, or we have something brilliant that’s happened here, there, or anywhere else. And we can collectively get around that, solve it, or enhance it, or celebrate it,” whichever version of that conversation is going on. And there are no barriers to that.
As Jenni said, the team is sitting on the floor today amongst Spark and Saatchi’s folks. They’re all there, they’re all having these conversations as a matter of course. And they’re all very used to working that way now. So, I think there’s enormous benefit to it.
Darren:
Toby, especially for strategy and creative people having access to a client, access to media, would have to be a benefit. I know when I was a copywriter and media was still part of the agency, I’d spend so much time down there because there were just so many interesting things going on.
Imogen:
You’re allowed on the same level now.
Jenni:
Progress.
Darren:
Do you have bracelets to stop you going up the hill?
Imogen:
No, of course, it’s not like that anymore. But I do remember being down in the basement as a media planner. People would come and visit me down there occasionally.
Darren:
I always went there because they had the best tickets-
Imogen:
Usually, yes.
Darren:
… to everything.
Imogen:
It may or may not still be true.
Toby:
Yeah, good point.
Hey, look, there’s still a bit of healthy sibling competitiveness about who’s coming up with the searing insight or the amazing thought.
But it’s a bit of an obvious human advantage that if you’re stuck and you can just walk across the floor and ask someone the question, “Hey, is this how this works? Do we have any media in this way? Will the media work well with this idea?”
And you can just have that conversation as your hallway conversation rather than having to prearrange a meeting that’s going to occur next week where you just can’t help you get slightly formal about it. It’s a huge advantage and it makes it frictionless and just less effort for people.
So, to Imo’s point, although you absolutely want to deliver that level of service for all clients, whether in an integrated model or not, it is definitely easier when you have your colleagues on the floor on a Tuesday basis.
It’s exactly the same feeling with Jenni and her team that we’re all sat on our desk, and we all wander up to each other and talk about what we’re working on.
Darren:
We’re all in this together. Which is a good place to be.
Toby:
I think so, yeah.
Darren:
Jenni, one of the things I’ve noticed particularly under your leadership is the number of partnerships and going into product development and all. So, like almost being a full CMO influencing all of the Ps of marketing.
Where are the opportunities or what’s the inspiration that really drove that? Because it is fascinating. You’ve taken a brand that, as you said, nostalgic and a part of everyone’s lives, but refreshing it with those partnerships.
Jenni:
Yeah. I mean, the logic there was as simple as we want to shake things up. We want to build a bit of momentum behind our brands in a few key areas.
And our ambitions for growth and our ambitions for where the brand should be, were way bigger than our budgets. So, we had to get really practical really quickly.
And I’m a huge fan of big ideas coming from absolutely anywhere. So, one of our first things that we did, and this was literally a couple of months in my arrival, we did a partnership with Krispy Kreme where we created some donut shaped biscuits.
And they went absolutely crazy, but that was a failed recruitment attempt.
So, it was me trying to hire someone, and at the last minute she said, “Oh, I’m really sorry. I’m taking a job at Krispy Kreme.” And on the same phone call, I said, “That’s a real shame. How about we do a colab instead?” And it literally came out of that.
Darren:
I love it. Love it.
Jenni:
So, again, when you’re kind of hustling for your brand to try and get as much awareness and as much cut through as you possibly can, those ideas can come from anywhere and everywhere. You just got to be open to them.
Darren:
Out of potential defeat, you snatched your victory from the mouth of failure.
Jenni:
Absolutely.
Imogen:
That’s exactly right.
Darren:
That’s brilliant.
Jenni:
And that’s just one example. So, there’s plenty of examples out there. There’s brands that we want to partner with. There’s even ways we can do things internally across our really big portfolio that just get super exciting.
Darren:
And they do. That really drives excitement. You see it in the response that you’re getting from the consumers.
Guys, when there’s something that’s needed, and I’m talking from a Publicis Groupe, when there are services and capabilities that are suddenly needed that are not necessarily comfortably within Saatchi or Spark. Obviously, the Publicis Groupe has a huge range of services.
Does The Neighbourhood allow for bringing those in or are you inclined to-
Toby:
Yeah, there’s some great examples of The Neighbourhood on its broader sense being beyond Publicis and Arnott’s. We’ve got great attribution modeling partner in analytical partners. The ad testing people. Sorry, I can’t remember off top of my head.
Jenni:
Luma.
Toby:
Luma, thank you very much. And media metrics too. And they’re all part of The Neighbourhood. And we need to know the intelligence and insight they’ve got because ultimately, it helps us get to a position where we’re making decisions to get results.
So, all are welcome if they take us to the holy place and a series of great results. If they happen to reside within the Publicis Groupe, they’re even more welcome. But ultimately, it’s just about getting the right result.
Darren:
So, it’s not just the immediate Neighbourhood, you’re willing to step out down the street to torture that metaphor that drew you in.
Toby:
Correct, yes.
Darren:
Down the street, around the corner, first on the right. That’s where we found what we needed.
Imogen:
It’s still part of The Neighbourhood.
Darren:
It’s still part of The Neighbourhood. Well, it’s a big neighborhood.
Jenni:
But I think some of those external examples, you’ve got an external third party bringing some really good deep insights into a particular piece of the business and how it’s working or not, where the opportunity areas are.
And I think that forms a basis for all of our shared learning and in terms of what we do next and how we make it better. It’s really, really important that we do that together.
Darren:
So, I just want to finish up because we’re running out of time. But probably the single biggest lesson that you’ve learned from this experience that you would want to share with others. Does anyone want to start? Maybe a few minutes to-
Tobu:
I’ll kick off one. It probably comes back to your idiot analogy, but I think never be afraid to ask a why question, because I like the ability to be able to ask that of Arnott’s. “But why”.
And do that in total confidence that you’re not going to be expected to have assumed knowledge or that your opinion can’t be as valid within the biscuit industry as someone on the Arnott’s team’s point of view is on advertising is a really, really healthy place to be. So, I’ve got that.
Culturally, that is my biggest learning. And none of us should ever think we’re too big to ask why.
Darren:
Fantastic.
Imogen:
That’s really good, Tob. Now, I don’t know what to say.
I think over the course of the last sort of, I also have been around for about four years, so Jenni and I have had some wonderful conversations that have been about sort of mutual success. But also, have never shied away from having conversations which could be perceived to be kind of awkward or difficult.
It’s in the way that you navigate the conversations which are a bit less comfortable, that real trust and real growth comes from.
And so, I think this has been a team that’s really allowed us to get comfortable with being somewhat uncomfortable from time to time, but has also, provided the evidence of what you get out of that, which is there is no conversation we cannot have.
I do not fear for the future of the agency when I need to have a difficult conversation or a challenging one. I’m very, very confident that Jenni’s perspective on we are all here to get better and better and better is categorically true. And you don’t get that privilege all the time.
So, I think that the lesson is, if you’re not having those kinds of conversations then there is more to be had out of your relationship with your clients.
Darren:
What I like about both of those is that it goes to the very heart of high performing teams, high performing relationships are ones where you don’t shy away from problems. You feel safe and confident enough to be able to directly confront them.
And that’s where people talk about trust between agencies and marketers, but it actually happens from being willing to have the tough conversation.
Imogen:
That’s where the exponential growth comes from. Not just the little bit better.
Darren:
Yeah. And I love that the two of you have picked up different approaches to that same thing.
Jenni:
And I would build on that. A belief that none of us individually have all of the answers, but that collectively in the relationship with all of the skill sets we’ve got involved, we can get to the answers.
And I think that kind of mindset allows you to put all the egos aside and you’re focussed on solving that problem or figuring out a way to crack that opportunity.
And I think in those tough conversations that you have in a place of trust, it actually allows you to find those breakthrough moments faster.
Because sometimes the synapses are firing in a different way. And it just means that the conversation you are having forces you to spin the problem around 90 degrees and maybe you see it from a different angle and then you find the unlock.
So, I think egos aside, open, honest conversations, and a genuine belief that no one individual has all of the answers.
Darren:
Fantastic. This has been a brilliant conversation. Thank you for being so generous and so open and sharing. I really appreciate it. Jenni Dill, Toby Aldred, and Imogen Hewitt, thank you very much.
Jenni:
Pleasure. Thank you.
Imogen:
Pleasure. Thanks for having us.
Darren:
And all success for The Neighbourhood. May it have at least another six years.
Toby:
Thank you very much.
Imogen:
Fingers crossed.