Emily McGregor is the founder and CEO of PenguinCat Creative. She also has over 20 years of experience in video sketch comedy, marketing across diverse industries, and leading creative teams.
Her work has helped bestselling authors, top influencers, eCommerce brands, and industry-leading coaches achieve results like sold-out events, tripled memberships, and doubled open rates.
In a past role as VP of Production at Comediva, a comedic content studio, she wrote and directed viral videos (with millions of views), branded content for major brands like Pepsi, and even sold a TV show to Amazon.
In a world where we all appreciate a laugh, a titter, a guffaw, a chuckle, a chortle, a giggle, a cackle, a howl or a snigger, Emily shares the power of humour in advertising and marketing and why marketers and agencies need to take the risk.
You can listen to the podcast here:
Follow Managing Marketing on Soundcloud, Podbean, TuneIn, Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcast and Amazon Podcasts.
“I think we’re found out why few marketers are happy to go down the comedy route”
“Probably. Yes. There are a lot of traps”.
Transcription:
Darren:
Hi, I’m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management consultancy and welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.
If you enjoy the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either review or like or share this episode to help spread the words and wisdom of our guests each week.
Now, don’t we all appreciate a laugh, a titter, a guffaw, a chuckle, a chortle, a giggle, a cackle, or a howl, or a snigger? And yet when was the last time you laughed in an advertisement?
My guest today has over 20 years of experience in video sketch comedy, marketing across diverse industries and leading creative teams. Her work has helped bestselling authors, top influencers, e-commerce brands, and industry leading coaches achieve results, like sold out events, tripling membership, and doubled open rates.
In a past role as VP of production at Comediva, a comedic content studio, she wrote and directed viral videos with millions of views, branded content for major brands like Pepsi, and even sold a TV show to Amazon.
Please, welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, the founder and CEO of PenguinCat Creative, Emily McGregor. Welcome, Emily.
Emily:
Hello. Thank you for having me. This is great.
Darren:
Look, and thank you for taking the time to have this chat, because there was a time that advertising was a great source of comedy. You look forward to the ads because they made you laugh, and it was a bit of an uplifting emotional experience in between the content that it was supporting. But these days you don’t see as many ads using humor.
Emily:
Yeah. You really don’t. It’s strange. Even to prepare for this podcast, looking back, I was like, “Oh, what were some of my favorite ads in the past few years?” I’m like, “Oh, my favorite ones are now over 10-yearsold.” Every single one is over 10-years-old.
Darren:
And look, there’s a lot of discussion in the entertainment industry and particularly amongst comedians about the fact that comedies actually had to significantly transform itself, because there was a time when most comedy was based on either being self-deprecating or deprecating to other people.
And in a world of political correctness and some may say wokeness, that became frowned upon, didn’t it?
Emily:
Yeah. And there’s been a lot of conversations too, just around … I think Jason Segel gave some interview recently around how there aren’t any like R-rated comedies anymore, and how that industry is basically dead right now. I mean, there’s a few here and there.
But, in general, I think also comedy is risky, that’s what makes it fun, that’s why it’s such a delight. But in this day and age, I think with a lot of marketing and in the film industry, there’s just this fear of taking any kind of risk.
They want to do everything based on old IP. They want to do everything based on things that sold overseas and then coming and adapting them here. They want to do things based on books, comic books. Having that new innovation and taking those risks is really kind of frowned upon right now and that, I find very unfortunate.
Darren:
And yet comedy actually requires to be constantly pushing the boundaries and coming up with new perspectives, doesn’t it? In many ways comedy works by confronting us with things that we hadn’t really considered and surprising and delighting us or shocking us.
Emily:
Right. And it’s supposed to make you think or make you feel. And if you are a little repulsed or a little pissed off, it’s kind of a good thing, that should be a good thing. Maybe not marketing with brands, but definitely I think in film, if we’re not doing that, culture’s just going to keep kind of regurgitating itself and not pushing forward and discovering new things if we’re just coming back to some of the old ideas over and over again.
Darren:
Yeah. What got you interested in comedy? Were you one of those kids that were just the natural joker at the back of the class or was it something more?
Emily:
No, I wasn’t. I’m not a performer. I’m not a standup. I’m behind the camera, I’m not in front of the camera. And I was never that class clown kind of person either, but I think I was given a lot of encouragement as a kid because I was naturally kind of funny and observant. And so, I would make funny jokes around adults, and then I would get compliments for that.
So, that’s just encouraged, just like, “Oh, this is the cool way I survive as a kid, is making jokes.” But yeah, I actually didn’t fall into comedy until I started working for the comedy company.
So, I didn’t even consider myself funny. I think a lot of women weren’t really encouraged to kind of go that direction until honestly, pretty recently. So, it’s something that I sort of tripped and fell into, honestly, it wasn’t really as deliberate or a constant lifelong pursuit necessarily.
Darren:
So, it wasn’t your long-term objective when the careers counselor was saying, “What do you see for yourself?” You weren’t saying, “I’m going to be a comedy writer, producer, and director.”
Emily:
No, I liked dystopian novels. I was that kid. I wanted anything with an atomic bomb in it. That’s what I was into. But you can make that funny.
Darren:
And yet here you’re.
Emily:
I know right? Now I’m like fart jokes, also cool.
Darren:
Now, it’s interesting what you said about women were never encouraged. There was always a double standard in society, but particularly when it came to comedy. Because some of the earliest women comedians or comediennes. I think that’s so weird. But-
Emily:
Yeah, I don’t think anyone uses that.
Darren:
But they actually suffered quite a lot for being funny, didn’t they?
Emily:
Yeah.
Darren:
As early as Lucille Ball and those very early days in the late 50s, 60s, it was Joan Rivers. A lot of women even though they were incredibly successful on one level, didn’t really have a great time, did they?
Emily:
No. And, I mean, I grew up watching reruns of Carol Burnett. And it was such a … and even we started Comediva, the woman who founded it, Erika. She’s founded it because she was going around and trying to pitch comedies in Hollywood. And this was 2010, it’s not that long ago. And was getting told over and over again, “Oh, women aren’t funny.”
And that’s shifted since then. I think that feels so old, even though it’s like 13 years, 14, now 15 years ago. That feels so outdated but that wasn’t that long ago that we were getting that kind of response. And there was some debate on if women could be funny or not.
But I think a lot of it does come down to comedy is power. If you walk into a room and you’re the first person to crack a joke, you kind of control that room. And there’s a lot of power in who is funny and who can say funny things and who feels confident enough to do that.
So, I think that that is part of why in entertainment comedy was so late in sort of getting any kind of marginalized voice amplified.
Darren:
What do you think it is about the risk? And that seems obvious, but that stops brands and businesses embracing it when it’s such a powerful technique for one, getting attention, but two, to really build rapport and a connection engagement with an audience.
Emily:
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I guess they’re just not being brave enough. I mean, I feel like you have to … the thing that boggles my mind on why people don’t use it is there isn’t a big difference in using comedy and doing any other kind of thing in marketing. It’s a similar process, but you do have to know your audience, and you have to know your goals, and you have to know things so much more.
I think you have to take it to such a deeper level to be able to create that relatability through, through comedy, through humor, however you want to frame it. And there’s a bigger risk if you don’t know that, then the joke might flop.
And I think there is more risk there, but there’s just so much more research and so much more knowing of that audience to be able to do comedy effectively. And I think there are fewer people that feel confident in a comedic voice. So, a lot of marketing companies might not have somebody in their team that can feel confident in that voice too.
Darren:
Well, I think one of the things is that people believe comedy’s so subjective, and they don’t want to alienate anyone, so they try and make something that everyone will enjoy. And it’s quite difficult, isn’t it? To come up with some comedy that everyone loves. Because in many ways, it’s naturally, by its nature going to be polarizing to some extent.
Emily:
But then, in marketing, you are supposed to be specific and go after a very specific niche. So, this idea of, yeah, you can’t really make comedy, that is for everyone unless it’s very broad and then it’s probably not that funny. The specificity is what makes comedy so effective.
I think it’s more challenging, especially if you are a global brand as well, creating comedy that can work in every different culture is pretty impossible. It’s why also in film and TV; you can sell horror films for foreign distribution very easily.
Everyone’s afraid of spiders, that’s just cool. But similar jokes aren’t necessarily going to land in different cultures or not. There’s always a fear of selling comedy overseas, and it’s harder to get funding. So, it applies to marketing as well, I think.
Darren:
Yeah. I remember years ago English comedian Ben Elton, who wrote Blackadder and quite famous written a lot of very entertaining and funny books. In the early days when he was doing standup, he arrived in Australia and 24 hours later, was doing his whole set in front of a live audience that I happened to be at.
And he had managed to customize it enough to local conditions, local nuances. And I saw an interview with him, and he said, every time he arrives in a new country, he spends the first 24 hours watching television.
Now, this was back in the 1980s. So, when television dominated, but he said, “24 hours of watching television in any country, and you get a very good idea of how much of the culture is relatable to your own personal experience.” And I thought that was really interesting.
Emily:
That’s cool. That’s awesome.
Darren:
Yeah. To be able to stand up. I think there was 500 people in the room, and he just had the whole room rocking with largely what could have been considered very English humor. Now, Australia and England have some connections as the U.S. and Australia do, but he managed to bring enough local references in, that the audience were really on side very quickly.
Emily:
Well, and also the adaptability of what is funny to an Australian audience, and also what is funny, coming from a British comedian to an Australian audience is different nuance as well.
Darren:
And the U.S. market is not really homogeneous, is it? Because you’ve got very different sensibilities. The Midwest Bible Belt versus the New York, cool in the LA, well, it’s not so cool in LA at the moment, but-
Emily:
No. Unfortunately not.
Darren:
But yeah, it is quite nuanced, isn’t it?
Emily:
Yeah. No, and you really have to know … I mean, say you’re advertising to moms, okay, is it a mom that’s going to take a joke? Like, “Oh, isn’t it funny that your toddler screams because they got exactly what they wanted?” And isn’t that so funny? Or it’s like, “Oh, it’s so funny, I think my kid’s such an asshole.”
Those are different kinds of moms who want different kinds of jokes and will be offended maybe at the other joke or think the other joke’s not effective. But if you’re going after a very specific audience, you’re going to have that audience in the palm of your hand if you nail that joke.
Darren:
And you mentioned Emily, that you were very much an observational style comedy writer. But it’s interesting because one of the other things is that people are inclined to think observation means stereotype.
For years and years comedy in advertising and even in television and film, stereotype women as being sort of at home caregivers, homemakers and really not that worldly. And now we’ve got a sort of reverse where a lot of the times the men were made out to be sort of stupid and not very sensitive or emotionally aware.
It’s a weak sort of comedy, isn’t it? That has to rely on a stereotype rather than getting a real observation.
Emily:
Yeah. And I mean, I do think we’ve moved away from that in a lot of senses, thankfully. I mean, you do obviously still see it around, but I feel like comedy has pushed away from that in a lot of ways, which is wonderful and appreciated.
Darren:
Look, I think comedy has. I think the times some … when we see humor in advertising, and maybe it’s the format of a minute or 30 seconds. It becomes a lazy approach to use the stereotype as a quick way of setting up the character that you’re making the joke about.
Emily:
Right. Yeah.
Darren:
The reason I raise that is because one of the big issues is that use of stereotypes still pervades advertising, even though there’s a big move to sort of stop it. And I see it purely as shorthand. What do you think are the ways that writers particularly can overcome that?
Emily:
Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to think on ways that we’ve worked to overcome that. I mean, there’s always that initial set of ideas, and I think you just have to try hard. It’s like figuring out exactly where is the comedy coming from? Is it coming from, oh, this character is fat. Alright, well then, you’re going to need to rethink that joke. That joke is probably going to come out rude and lame and stereotypical.
Is the comedy engine coming from something more innate? And then you can push that a little further. But if it’s coming from that stereotype, then you probably are just having a bad idea to begin with.
Darren:
Yeah. Because it’s not just gender. I use gender as an example, but even worse would be racial stereotypes where you’re playing on a perception of people that you then make fun of.
Emily:
Yeah. There’s so many different kinds of stereotypes. You got ableism, you got sexism, you got racism, you got them all. And I think it’s easy to fall in the trap of making the joke about the ism rather than something else, or the experience of that person. Or something a little more, again, specific about your audience and what problem you’re solving in the world.
Darren:
Unless of course, you turn it on its head and actually break the stereotype by making the humor the fact that the stereotype doesn’t hold up.
Emily:
Right. And then there’s risk in that sometimes of sort of accidentally reinforcing the stereotype too, I think.
Darren:
True, true. Very true.
Emily:
There’s a weird snake eating its tail kind of thing there.
Darren:
And I think we’re found out why few marketers are happy to go down the comedy route.
Emily:
Probably. Yes. There are a lot of traps.
Darren:
The other thing is the difference, in comedy, a lot of people think it’s the joke. That it’s story, story, story, punchline, is the only sort of approach to comedy, but that’s not true, is it?
Emily:
No. I think that is partially what kind of keeps people away from it sometimes. I feel like humor is a more broad kind of spectrum of what comedy can be. It’s more humor, and that isn’t necessarily jokes. Jokes can be part of a humorous campaign, but you don’t need to have jokes in a humorous campaign, if that makes sense.
It’s more like creating a fun, relatable, playful ecosystem or atmosphere for your brand, rather than oh, we’re going to have all these jokes. It’s going to be ha, ha, ha, laugh out loud funny and it’s going to be like SNL. It can also just be a vibe. A fun playful vibe can be humor as well.
Darren:
Yeah. A wry smile or a little titter.
Emily:
Right. That’s still going to get your dopamine up and make you fall in love with the brand. I think humor and advertising, it’s more about humanizing the brand, it’s not so much. Necessarily making people laugh. I got to make them laugh. It’s not successful unless they’re laughing. It’s successful if they’re relating, if they’re feeling seen, if they’re engaging. And if they’re remembering you, I think.
Darren:
I remember very early on in my writing career, a creative director called Ted Horton, did a video where he got a TV show and each of the ad breaks, he would appear and tell the same joke with a punchline.
And the first time he told it was quite funny, and the second time it wasn’t as funny, and the third time. And his point was that if you’re going to use comedy in advertising, don’t make it about the punchline.
That the human needs to start at the opening and go all the way, set it up very quickly and have it go all the way through. Because if you’re relying on just the one payoff, advertising by its nature is going to be seen over and over again.
Emily:
Right. And it’s more of creating that environment of humor and types of jokes and your brand and your tone of humor and keeping that consistent and having fun in that sandbox rather than, “Oh, we have this one joke.” And isn’t it funny, our brand’s like, “This one joke?”
Darren:
Yeah. But burns out very quickly, doesn’t it?
Emily:
Yeah. Exactly. Unless you’re ideating on … I mean, like you see in progressive ads, they use technically the same joke over and over again. But it’s fun to see or what new way are they presenting it.
Darren:
Well, from Australia, we have a campaign that’s now gone globally, for Uber Eats. And the humor there is about getting celebrities and putting them in relatable, but different situations. And that’s where the humor comes from, is seeing them being different. There was one recently with Jason Alexander.
Emily:
Oh, fun.
Darren:
I don’t know if you’ve seen it.
Emily:
I haven’t seen it. I’ll have to check that out. Yeah.
Darren:
Yeah. really, really, really funny because he orders from Uber Eats, canned laughter, and then it stays with him. So, every time he says anything, there’s this laughter. And of course, people think that he’s having a joke at their expense.
Emily:
Right. That’s fun. That’s great. I love that.
Darren:
So, yeah, that type of humor works really well because I think I’ve seen that ad more than 20 times, and every time-
Emily:
It’s still funny.
Darren:
It’s still funny. There’s no punchline. The whole thing is the joke.
Emily:
Yeah. The concept. Yeah. Exactly.
Darren:
Are there any campaigns like that, that you’ve liked or enjoyed, wished you’d written?
Emily:
Yeah, I’m trying to think if there’s any … there’s not any right now that I’m — I mean, I sort of like the you’re not your parents one is fun and relatable. It’s not like, “Oh, this is the most brilliant thing in the world. I can’t believe it.” But I find it effective, I guess. And I’m supposed to sit with some friends that acted in the campaigns, so I think I’m a little more endeared to it too.
Darren:
Can you remember the brand?
Emily:
It’s Progressive. I do know that.
Darren:
Progressive Insurance.
Emily:
It is Progressive. That is a very progressive one. I know that’s the other risk, I guess, for humor, is having the joke outshine what you’re selling. And so, people go, “Oh, I saw that really funny commercial with the cat in the tree or whatever.” I don’t remember what it was for.
Darren:
Where the punchline becomes the memorable thing, except it has nothing to do with the-
Emily:
Do with the brand. Or like you said, “Oh, which insurance company? Is it Allstate, is it Progressive? Is it GEICO?”
Darren:
So, it is really powerful, isn’t it? When a category like insurance, which can be incredibly boring and take itself very seriously, suddenly is willing to use humor. And a humor is a way of demonstrating the benefit of the product.
Emily:
It’s kind of interesting that with that industry, it is such a dry and kind of awful. People don’t have good feelings when they think about insurance by any means. But all of them do comedic ads pretty-
Darren:
That’s true.
Emily:
I think all of them do. At least in the U.S., I don’t know.
Darren:
Yeah. That’s in the U.S. right.
Emily:
Is that in the U.S.? Okay.
Darren:
There’s a couple in Australia that do that, and some in the UK, but a lot of them take themselves very seriously.
Emily:
Really? Okay.
Darren:
And I think because they’re trying to elicit trust. And they think somehow that humor can undermine trust, but in actual fact, the-
Emily:
Think of the opposite. It’s true. Yeah.
Darren:
The point you made earlier is that it actually builds engagement. People feel positive about a brand that’s happy to make them laugh or make them feel good.
Emily:
Well, and I think if you can tell a joke about somebody’s pain point or whatever, you’re showing such a deeper understanding of where they’re coming from. You’re showing you so deeply understand that issue instead of just telling them that you understand what they’re going through. I think it’s the ultimate no like trust as they say.
Darren:
Yeah. There’s an insurance company in Australia, AAMI and they always dramatize the disaster to the extreme, and the humor’s in the dramatization. No matter how ridiculous the disaster is, they’re there to help you is basically the bottom line and quite a powerful positioning to own.
Emily:
See, that’s fun. And you’re remembering it.
Darren:
Any other categories that come to mind? Any other ads that-
Emily:
Ads, I mean, one of my favorite-
Darren:
You said 10 years ago.
Emily:
I know, will do 10 years ago.
Darren:
Come on, let’s do 10 years ago.
Emily:
Let’s do 10 years ago. I think one of my favorite that sticks with me is actually a UK ad. It’s the cats with thumbs. It’s for a milk brand, which I do forget the milk brand because it’s not a U.S. Milk brand, but it started with a C, I don’t know.
But it’s basically showing a man eating milk and his cat’s there. And it’s basically proposing what if cats suddenly grew thumbs and then they would take over the world and take all this milk. And it’s just so memorable. And I think about it when I look at my cat and it’s such an old ad.
Darren:
But look, it’s not offensive in any way. Lots of people love cats or they don’t love cats.
Emily:
Either way.
Darren:
I think most people love cats because it’s the highest rating thing on YouTube, is it? Put a good cat video up and you’re guaranteed you’re done to get virality.
Emily:
Exactly. Yeah. People love cats. And even if you hate cats, you definitely don’t want them to have thumbs. And I love cats, and I definitely don’t want them to have thumbs.
Darren:
Yeah. They’d start opening doors.
Emily:
Exactly. But I think it was funny because they did really milk the concept of cats having thumbs and then coming after your milk and I just have such a delight for that ad.
The other one that I deeply wish I was involved in, it was the Old Spice ads get played with the guy, this is your man. I loved that, that whole series was so … it feels very of its time now I think, but I loved that one a lot.
Darren:
And the great thing about it was that there was always that surprise every sort of five seconds. There was another surprise as you transitioned from one thing to the next. Kept you engaged.
Emily:
Kept you engaged, and it was really playing … it worked well in that time too. It was a time I was working more in YouTube space and what videos were going viral at that time. And it was that surprising random weird off the ball humor that was really popular at the time worked really well.
I feel like it played within that without feeling it was just copying stuff from the internet. Like took it to a whole new level. Just like a dude on a horse. Great. Who doesn’t love that?
Darren:
And a good-looking dude too-
Emily:
Well, yeah. Key. Pictorials, pictorials will sell your brand. There we go.
Darren:
And a six pack.
Emily:
And a six pack. Yes.
Darren:
Well, particularly the target audience is women, even though it’s a cologne for men, Old Spice, they worked out that the main audience was women buying it for their man. So, I mean, perfectly targeted, funny and had a very positive result.
Emily:
Yeah. I love it. Hey, I use Old Spice, not because of those ads.
Darren:
We have a long running campaign in Australia for Australian lamb, and it’s always runs in the summer has built a terrific body of work and it’d be worthwhile to having a look at it. But what they do is each year they pick a particular issue, like the gender gap between boomers and Z. Or this year it’s about the comment sections on social media.
So, they’ll pick a major social issue, and then dramatize it. Because the bottom line is that barbecued lamb is the one thing that brings all Australians together in agreement.
Emily:
Oh, that’s great.
Darren:
It’s become more and more relevant.
Emily:
Yeah. I was going to say they need-
Darren:
Because as the world’s become increasingly divided, it’s actually bringing everyone together. So, the proposition is, but the great thing is it’s done with humor. And I think that’s a really important thing, is the ability of comedy to actually allow you to leverage something that could be quite divisive in itself.
Emily:
Well, what you just said made me think of the Pepsi ad from I think 2020 to edit that play over there. The one with like Kylie Jenner and trying to give the Pepsi to the cops. And so, you didn’t use comedy, you tried to make it schmutzy and it flopped so hard. That was in such bad taste at the time. I don’t know if you guys saw that one?
Darren:
Yeah. Absolutely. And also, the aftermath of it, of the blame game of everyone pointing the finger at everyone else that was involved in it.
Look, that’s the big risk, when it flops like that, it flops big time. And so, I can see why people are inclined marketers, brands are inclined to want to avoid it, but you have to balance that with the power of it.
Emily:
And again, the lamb campaign works because it’s funny and you’re bringing — and it’s funny because it’s lamb. Okay, we’re not actually saying Lamb is going to bring all these sides together. We know we’re not actually saying that. Pepsi was like, “Are you actually trying to say this? Because it feels like you’re actually trying to say this.” I think that’s a pretty big difference too.
Darren:
That being very earnest work.
Emily:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like-
Darren:
We can solve the world with our bubbly, sugary flavored drink.
Emily:
Drink, yeah. Do you believe it? Because it feels like you might. I don’t think lamb believes it.
Darren:
I just want to go back to something you mentioned earlier. And that is when you’re observing and seeing something that was funny as a child that you’d play back to adults. What are the types of things you’re thinking about? What are you looking for when you see something?
Some of my favorite comedians are observational. And what I love about it is that there’s always a fresh perspective on the things that you’ve seen over and over again, but never really brought that perspective to in your mind. So, when you see it or hear it, you go, “Oh my God, that’s so funny. It’s so true, but it’s funny.”
Emily:
Yeah. I guess it’s just trying to look at the situation and finding that in hate absurdity in it and highlighting that … I can’t think of a good example right off the top of my head, of course.
But I think it’s like everything, every pain, every human experience. I think there’s just so much absurdity in most of our day-to-day. It’s very funny how angry we get at very little things. That’s always just very funny to me. Or very funny how obsessive people get about things.
And I think people like to laugh at themselves about that and are comfortable with that. It makes them feel almost better about getting caught up in the silly day-to-day.
And so, finding where that absurdity is, and then how can you highlight that or make it bigger or connect it to another thing and bring two things together that don’t belong? It’s usually I think the approach I take. It’s also very instinctual. It’s hard to describe.
Darren:
No, that is true. It’s something that you either see or you don’t see. And the power is in articulating the absurdity for people that haven’t seen it. They’ve seen the situation, but not actually seeing the absurdity. And by raising it, they go, “Oh my God.”
Emily:
That is very silly.
Darren:
There’s a fundamental truth in it which makes it believable. But then you’re laughing at it because you know it’s true, but it’s also absurd and you’ve not realized that before. But it’s such a great opportunity.
Emily:
Yeah. You’re getting called out in a way, and I guess the risk there too is not being flippant about somebody’s experience in a way. If it’s a more of a serious thing that you’re laughing about, try to balance that.
Making it funny and absurd but also making sure you’re not talking down or belittling, what are you making fun of in that moment too, and being careful with that.
Darren:
Well, possibly, two of the kings of observational and absurdity are Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David. First of all, with Seinfeld and then with Curb Your Enthusiasm. That ability to take just everyday life and bring the absurdity to the surface made them incredibly successful.
Emily:
Yeah. Still funny to today. Like Seinfeld, some of that stuff doesn’t hold up, but a lot of it does, it’s so relatable.
Darren:
But there’s an opportunity there for brands that are willing to have a laugh at their own expense, because Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm are incredibly self-deprecating. The butt of the joke is the characters in the story, aren’t they?
Emily:
Right. They’re really not punching up or down. They’re punching horizontally, inwardly.
Darren:
Beating themselves up.
Emily:
Right. And yeah. I think brands, by not taking yourself so seriously, have a great opportunity to, you don’t have to like punch inward necessarily, but I think there’s a lot of concern right now, going back to a thing we were talking about earlier about like are we punching up, are we punching down?
And comedy, especially in marketing, it doesn’t need to be about like punching necessarily either. So, I think it’s also kind of a myopic way of thinking about comedy. And I think that is where a lot of the fear comes from, oh, who are we offending?
Well, if you’re not punching with your comedy and then there’s a time to punch with your comedy. I love something that goes hard, but if you’re doing a brand voice.
Darren:
Yeah, absolutely. And the point of not taking yourself seriously or too seriously, I think in this day and age, and in these political circumstances is probably incredibly powerful because there was this issue around everyone needed a purpose.
All the brands had their purpose and many of those were incredibly serious and meaningful and a bit like Pepsi, trying to be meaningful and relevant. But there’s also a role for just being and being human and being flawed and acknowledging that human experience.
Emily:
Yeah. And I think also just knowing where you stand, I think there was a lot of pushback too against some of those really earnest values. Alright, calm down Oreos. You’re not a gay icon. Let’s calm down a little bit.
You weren’t at Stonewall. Let’s be real here. Where it’s like if you could be a little less serious about these things, it’s a brand, it’s okay, we can have fun. You’re not going to save the world, and that’s okay.
Darren:
Well, even in that, I’ve seen brands come undone because they’re full on for pride week or Pride month. And when you said a gay icon, it made me think, they’re all for supporting the LGBTQ, I’ve lost the acronym, but supporting that community, but only for a week.
And so many friends of mine in that community go, “Hey, this is my life 365 days, not just for that week or that month.
Emily:
It comes off so disingenuous and you’re using that community to further your message rather than actually doing anything meaningful to actually support.
Darren:
It’s also interesting the whole role of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Because it’s the opposite of stereotype. It’s actually including people in the joke in a way.
But it’s also incredibly powerful because representation is also important. People seeing themselves in the, the story is really important, but particularly in comedy, isn’t it? And we’re seeing this rise of multiple races, multiple ages in comedy, etching out quite successful careers.
And I can’t remember a name, but an Indian woman from the UK who’s got a huge following, Ali Wong in the U.S., that so many different people. Trevor Noah. It doesn’t have to be the same sort of almost stereo male, pale, and stale.
Emily:
Yeah, exactly. And again, diversity is so important. You’re seeing more people represented, and it also brings more specificity, which brings more comedy. And I hope brands embrace that more.
Specificity isn’t exclusive. I think they’re worried like, “Oh, it’s going to exclude this other audience if I show this person on the TV.” Well, no, it’s actually inclusive, people are kind of drawn to that specificity even if it’s not them they’re seeing necessarily on the screen.
Darren:
Well, all those examples that I used, one of the things that they all have in common is that their comedy comes from their existence, their experience of life. Growing up, their culture, their gender or whatever is the source of that material. And it’s delivered in a way that’s incredibly inclusive. In that people can relate to that human experience.
Emily:
Yeah. Or I think we’ll naturally find a way to relate. We’re relation pattern seeking beings. So, if somebody’s explaining their background and it was so on paper so different than yours, you’re going to find ways to relate to that and see yourself even in their story. And I think that’s a beautiful part of being human.
Darren:
Well, it’s finding the commonality. I think no matter what people say about Germany, I think we all have a sense of humor. It is just slightly different. So, there you go, I’ve just done a stereotype for you.
Emily:
There you go. Yeah, nice German stereotype.
Darren:
The audience is going to be agencies and marketers. Do you have any advice, or can you point people in the right direction of where they should start, if they’re thinking about using comedy or they’ve been proposed a solution that has comedy in it. Rather than focusing straight on all the risks, what’s the best way of assessing a piece of comedy or humor?
Emily:
That’s an interesting question. I mean, do you mean if they’re like, “Oh, I want to make this campaign humorous, or they’ve been tasked with doing that?”
Darren:
Yeah.
Emily:
Yeah. I mean, kind of like the comedian you were just talking about, watching a lot of comedic ads and seeing what other people have done and seeing that potential might help kind of get over that fear of that risk. Just seeing that, oh, what this could be.
And I mean, one thing I think about in terms of figuring out what would be funny to a specific audience is playing Cards Against Humanity against that ideal buyer. Think about you’re playing Cards Against Humanity and honestly, maybe get out those cards. I don’t know if that’s an HR problem, but I get out those cards and think about playing it, can you pick what they would pick as being the funniest option?
Darren:
Yeah.
Emily:
And if you don’t, you probably need to do some more research on that audience and what they will find funny. But it’s a silly way to get out of your head a little bit and start kind of thinking about that audience and what would make them laugh and why.
Darren:
Emily, that’s such a great insight because it goes directly to the better you understand your audience, the more relevant the communication. But also understanding what they need from it and how to deliver that is so important. I think that’s a great insight.
Cards Against Humanity. I’m seeing a corporate boardroom with all these people, marketers and agencies sitting around playing it, pretending to be the target audience.
Emily:
The target audience. Again, maybe ask HR. I don’t know, I’ve never worked corporate. There’s also like being so grounded in the goal of the campaign and the audience and what you want out of the joke and what you want the joke saying and the comedic engine for the joke. You do have to be .. or joke, humor.
You do have to be so clear on that because I think it is easy with comedy to get really lost in the sauce too. You can get, oh, you’re pitching ideas and you’re thinking of jokes and like, oh, that’s really funny. That’s really funny.
It could be funny, but it might not be accomplishing your goals, and I think it’s easy to get kind of lost and wrapped up in it if you don’t have your foundation set. Just the same with anything in marketing, but comedy, I think it’s easy to get excited about something that’s funny.
Darren:
Yeah. And I think the best comedians actually do that. Yes, they go for the joke, but all of the best standup I’ve ever seen actually has an overarching message or story that they want to tell that is incredibly powerful that the audience walk away not just with that sense of, I’ve had a good time, but also, they take something with them.
And in the same way you need to make sure that the takeout to your point is on message. What is it that they feel? And hopefully remember the brand.
Emily:
Yes. That as well, not just the industry and not just the humor. And there’s a thing about comedy too that I think is mystifying to people where they’re like, oh yeah standup comedian, he just goes up on stage, he or she goes up on stage and just tells jokes and they naturally funny.
And it’s like no, no, no, no, no. They have rehearsed that they have done that in front of hundreds, especially if it’s an hour long special on Netflix. They have rehearsed the shit out of that for probably two years and have done that in front of hundreds of audiences before you’re seeing this, off the cuff, very natural delivery of a joke.
So, I think people think, oh, well you’re just, either you can do comedy or you can’t do comedy because it just comes so naturally. It’s like no, it’s just as much work if not more. There’s a craft there and there’s a process.
Darren:
And particularly for standup. Almost all great comedy writers or performers have done the work of standing up in front of live audiences and literally, no, not literally. Figuratively dying.
Emily:
Figuratively died. Yeah.
Darren:
I literally died.
Emily:
Literally died. That’s why every comedy movie has like 20 uncredited comedians doing punch ups in the room.
Darren:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Emily:
It takes a lot of ideations.
Darren:
Look, thank you so much for taking the time. The time has got away from us. I want to thank you Emily McGregor from PenguinCat Creative for sharing with us your thoughts and ideas on using comedy in advertising and marketing. Thank you.
Emily:
Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.
Darren:
Just before we go, one question and that is who would you say is the best comedian going around at the moment?
