Denise Shrivell is the Founder of MediaScope and discusses with Darren the state of the media industry today, the challenges of media technology and her MediaScapes. They also discuss the role of women in media and the role Peggy’s List plays in ensuring women have equal opportunity to share their thoughts and insights in the important discussions on the issues facing the media and marketing industry.
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Transcription:
Darren:
Welcome to Managing Marketing, and this week I’m joined by Denise Shrivell, founder of MediaScope and someone that I’ve known in the industry for quite a few years. So, welcome Denise.
Denise:
Thank you very much for having me, Darren. It’s good to be here.
The state of the Australian media
Darren:
So, it was interesting, we’ve done a few projects together but the one that I think is particularly salient is for a couple of years we went to the market and asked what is the state of the Australian media?
Denise:
We did.
Darren:
And we got, well from my perspective, an underwhelming response from the point of view that it seemed to be the same problems every year but no one had any solutions. What did you feel?
Denise:
I don’t think there were any surprises perhaps in the findings of the two or three surveys that we did. I think first of all the way that it came about was you and I met, we were kind of introduced, and we spoke about the ongoing discussions that I was having in marketing about the frustrations in the media trading process.
So, my conversations were predominantly with media agency people but also a lot of publishers who were just so frustrated at the way they were being treated by media agencies they couldn’t get in.
They felt like the opportunities they were presenting weren’t getting through to the client. They felt like no matter what they did the agencies were just going to go with the normal cookie-cutter approach and so on.
So, ongoing conversations about this frustration. So, when you and I spoke about that we thought let’s do a survey. Let’s really find out what’s going on.
Darren:
I know because at the same time we had the media agencies all complaining about how do we attract talent? How do we keep talent? You know it seemed like the trade press and the conversation was all about the same thing over and over again. Yet no one seemed to be proactively trying to stimulate or curate the conversation around how to move forward.
Denise:
I agree, and I think one of the things I’ve tried to do with MediaScope over the years has really been to take tangible action instead of just continuing the talkfest. So, yes, every six months there seems to be complete outrage about certain topics within our industries.
So, it could be women, it could be the media trading process, it could be a myriad of other things. So what I’ve really tried to do is to say, ‘I want to take tangible action on certain topics that keep coming up’. And from my point of view too I want to know the reasons why I’m frustrated.
So this survey was a really great opportunity to delve into what are the reasons I’m hearing this all the time and to find out a lot more.
Darren:
Because I’m a big believer in the golden rule and that is ‘the man with the gold makes the rules’.
Denise:
Yep, I know that saying from you.
Darren:
It just frustrates the hell out of me that first of all the advertisers themselves because they’re the ones ultimately with the gold, and even their associations and organisations seem to be completely paralysed in doing anything proactive in this area.
I mean we’ve got the K2 report from the ANA in the U.S. and we’ve got ISBAR in the U.K. who’ve brought out a new pro-forma contract for media agencies and yet here we seem to have people sitting around on their hands doing the same thing that we saw for two or three years, which is, ‘yes, we know there’s a problem but what are we going to do about it, we’re not sure’. You know? It’s just boring.
Denise:
One of the articles that I have on media, and I don’t know if I’d call it an article it’s more a curation of articles. One of the things that I’ve done on MediaScope has been a timeline of articles and our survey is of course included in that.
A timeline and the title of the timeline is ‘Media trading—are we at the tipping point yet?’ And as you know the first article that I really picked up talking about this was probably in 2012. And I think Simon Rutherford and you were very early on the front foot about talking about these issues we all know.
Darren:
Well that’s when we first found out about value banks. I couldn’t believe it. I’m having a conversation with a media agency CEO and he lets slip with, ‘oh well, we use our value bank’. Oh, what’s the value bank?
We’d had a suspicion that something like this was going on but no one wanted to talk about it. They talk about it in their little groups but no one was willing to bring it to the surface and say, ‘this is what’s happening’.
I actually had a heated discussion on LinkedIn with a very high profile marketer around that time because I’d read an article that said this is actually being caused by marketers in procurement constantly putting downward pressure not just on media price but also on the agency fees. If you push both down you’ll end up getting some sort of reaction to that, which is to find another source of revenue.
Denise:
That’s exactly right.
Darren:
Which is what’s happened and now they’re all going, ‘oh, shock, horror but we won’t do anything about it’.
Denise:
The scenario that you just described is also a consequence of a lot of the findings that we found through that survey. So, from younger, inexperienced people within media agencies, huge media agency churn at the moment I think it is on 30 to 40%.
The skill shortage is definitely the ‘keep me up at night’ issue within media agencies. Although one of many probably. But a lot of the consequences started with the scenario that you just spoke about. There’s no doubt about it.
Mediascope
Darren:
We could probably rehash exactly what we went through all over again but actually for me my whole experience of working with you, Denise and MediaScope goes even way before that.
I remember the first time that we met. You were explaining to me what MediaScope is and does and you had this amazing (and still have) directory of media owners and media channel opportunities. I mean everything from balloons to sign writing to lavatory or convenience advertising and everything in between.
I remember at the time you said, ‘it’s really frustrating that media agencies still only think of the high profile media. Very little of this great long tail gets any consideration’. Do you want to explain what that means?
Denise:
MediaScope was originally born, in 2007 now, out of that seed of an idea—I think my first tagline was, ‘reach beyond mainstream’. And it was really born out of that idea that yes, we have our major media but there’s so much more beyond that major media that could really bring a lot of depth and richness to a media plan. The ‘long tail’ was certainly a phrase that was being often being spoken about back then.
Darren:
About digital.
Denise:
With digital. So, you had your four or five major properties but then this huge long tail of properties. And I suppose partly because I was so involved with the central baby, which was a great example of a long tail website back in the early noughties I suppose.
So MediaScope started off as a directory and our focus was on those reach beyond mainstream opportunities and it wasn’t just digital. It was also as you said the balloon advertising, the aerial advertising…
Long tail opportunities
Darren:
I mean it was everything. I remember we wrote a joint post where we picked 10 or 20 media opportunities that your media agency would probably never present to you, not because they weren’t valid.
They just seemed to be too lazy to actually be bothered to think beyond oh well television, and then press, radio or outdoor to support it and that was pretty much it.
Denise:
I think I sort of realised that even though a lot of the media agencies gave me an enormous amount of positive reinforcement that this product was really needed as part of their planning tools to help them uncover a lot of opportunities that perhaps weren’t apparent. As you said, from the balloons to the car wraps to the sandwich bags.
I remember there was an ice bag advertisement, advertising on ice bags. There were all sorts of really quirky ambient opportunities that are still in that directory even though, I will admit, the directory is out of date now.
Darren:
But Greg Graham, ‘Sparrow’, up at Group M, when I worked with him back in JWT days his big stunt was to pull out milk cartons as part of the pitch and go, ‘you can even have your ad here on the milk carton so that when people are having their breakfast cereal in the morning your brand is there on the breakfast table’.
It was used as a stunt but there was so much rich opportunity across all these media channels that people don’t even bother thinking about.
Denise:
Look I think that there are still those rich opportunities there but my understanding is that a lot of marketers will dedicate some of their media marketing spend to those outside the square opportunities that perhaps don’t give very apparent return on investment but will delight and find something really out of the square and quirky and ambient.
Often the most surprising results can be found by something that perhaps isn’t in a normal plan. So, they’re still certainly there. They’re on the MediaScapes now. We’ll talk about the MediaScapes in a moment.
But yeah it was a really hard sell back in those early days of MediaScope there’s no doubt about it but you know what I turned up every day. I kept trying. Out of the 50 things that I’d thrown at the market, the market now happily takes four or five really good things.
Darren:
You know what they say, Denise? ‘Turning up is 80% of success’, so well done. Because you have evolved. What did you say, 2007? So, almost a decade.
Denise:
Gosh. I’ve been in the industry since I was 18 so, I’m 51 now.
Darren:
Ten years, right?
Denise:
Thank you, thank you. I worked at Club Med for a while—that’s a story I don’t talk about very often but always been in this industry. And you know when I had kids, in 2000, to me it was either under-employment, unemployment or do my own thing so that really started me on this journey.
Mediascapes
Darren:
Of doing your own thing and, as I said, doing it well because today you’ve evolved MediaScope into quite a rich source of information around technology. Now, technology is affecting all aspects of the industry but what I’m really enjoying is watching the conversations, not just around MediaScapes (which is your maps of the different vendors in each of the areas) but also the conversations that are occurring with that as well.
You are really becoming a repository of knowledge around the evolution that’s happening, the technology revolution that’s happening in media.
Denise:
Well, the MediaScapes I think has certainly helped position…well first of all I’m so humbled and proud that the market seems to value the work that I produce really from my little home office in Chatswood.
So that’s such a great feeling, and the MediaScapes were really born in mid 2010 when I first saw the LUMAScape and the LUMAScape was quite a sparse landscape back then but I thought I’ll do one for the Australian market, and really my great kept secret is that the MediaScapes are really just a visual reflection of the MediaScope’s original directory.
For some reason the directory, which had all this rich information, didn’t fly as well but certainly the MediaScapes just really took off quite quickly. The digital MediaScape started in 2010. I now have this great year on year comparison of that digital MediaScape, which actually got highlighted in an article by Tim Whitfield from GroupM today.
It just shows the really interesting evolution of the market. I’ll often say I clearly had no idea what I was getting myself into back in 2010 because, of course, it’s such a complex, fast moving landscape now.
But then I really thought, ‘yes, the digital one’s there but hang on a minute every channel in the Australian market is moving very quickly and deserves some level of definition and navigation’, so there’s now 25 MediaScapes mapping every channel in the Australian media market, media agencies, also creative agencies are there, and I’m constantly on the lookout for new channels and new landscapes that require some level of navigation.
I suppose being independent, I work on my own but I have great relationships with everyone but my priority is industry first and my mind-set is very much set that way. I’m very independent and I think what would be of use to the market? So, being independent I’m not aligned to anyone. I don’t bias anyone in the market and I really work hard and very consciously to do that.
Darren:
But it is such a valuable resource because one of the issues that we talk about a lot is where can marketers today get information and advice on the technology options available to them?
The trade media is almost invariably focused on the new shiny object. Everyone’s writing about virtual reality and artificial intelligence or they’re basically running a press release. The sales people are doing a great job at selling their product in the best possible light.
The agencies themselves are often acting as sales representatives or vendors for particular technology solutions so it becomes incredibly difficult, where does a marketer at least get an understanding of the lay of the land from a very independent source that’s not trying to sell them a particular solution? That’s where MediaScope’s fulfilling such a great need.
Denise:
Thank you. And look I don’t begrudge any trade media or anyone else for doing their job and what they have to do to…
Darren:
Make a buck.
Denise:
Make a buck, earn their living, pay their staff. You know we’ve all got mortgages and that sort of thing to do and everyone’s got their own business model in the way that they do things.
For me I found my niche by offering that independent kind of holistic information. And I often curate relevant articles to MediaScope’s audience from trade media, from you, and from other places. Again very focused on audience first and what would be relevant to MediaScope’s audience. So I get my content and my information from all of those sources.
Darren:
Spoken like a true content marketer.
Denise:
Thank you very much, and a true diplomat too probably. I’ve been in the industry for a long time. I’m not here to make any enemies. Everyone has their own way of doing things. We’re all here to make some kind of difference in our own way, and at the end of the day earn a living, feeding our families, doing all that sort of thing.
Women in the industry – the challenges
Darren:
You mention family again, and earlier you were talking about in 2000 when you were having a family what the options were available, under-employed, unemployed…
Denise:
Or doing my own thing.
Darren:
Doing your own thing. So, that’s one of the other things that I really value and acknowledge that you do is championing women in the industry because I know I’ve been to many industry conferences (apart from the last Mumbrella 360, which was overseas) where they actually actively went out and gender balanced all of the speakers.
But most events that you go to pretty much the panel is what I’d call male, pale and stale. You know it’s the same white, pudgy, male experts talking about their perspective on the industry. What do you think is the biggest challenge for women and how can we overcome it?
Denise:
Gosh, that’s a big thing. For me one of the biggest challenges I see for women in the industry—one of the things I often talk about is we don’t have a competency issue, we have a confidence issue.
So I do think that’s something women could be better at but I suppose one of the great things I’ve been able to do running my own business through MediaScope is I have been able to follow my passion projects.
So, one of the things has been the MediaScapes obviously, which is a very independent view of all the media in the Australian market. The other thing is obviously women in the industry, and being in the situation that I’ve been in since starting my family in 2000, when there wasn’t really an opportunity for me to progress my career in a flexible way in the core industry so I kind of made my own way, which has been incredibly challenging.
The number of days that I’ve just wanted to pull the covers up and not get up but I got up every day.
Darren:
It’s good to have a doona day every so often.
Denise:
I agree. I like a doona day every now and then.
Darren:
Keep turning up.
Denise:
I have to keep turning up, that’s my thing. But Women in Media is something that I started a while ago where I started a series of Q&As where I would ask questions with key women in the media market.
That really progressed onto quite a large LinkedIn group that’s called ‘We are Women in Media and Advertising’. That now has about 810 women in it, very focused to women in our Australian sector, new women joining every day so it’s got that momentum building now.
But every time I would put an article up in that LinkedIn group that spoke about the lack of women speaking at events the enormous reaction that the women in that group would give was quite overwhelming so I thought there has to be a solution there.
So again coming back to my thing about, ‘let’s not just talk about this anymore, let’s actually put something tangible in place’ as you do, middle of the night, Peggy’s list.
Peggy’s List
Darren:
Yeah, I love it. Because one of the things when you talk to event organisers they go, ‘oh, it just seems to be easier to find men to talk on these subjects than women’ but there are so many qualified women who are great presenters, great storytellers and yet they just get overlooked all the time but Peggy’s List is such a rich resource of women speakers.
Denise:
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I think as marketers we all know when you launch something you launch it to market, you have to push it and push it and pivot with it, and make different decisions with it but you paddle along and you just keep going on pushing and pushing.
Peggy’s List is one of those things that literally the day I put it to market it just took off and I was like ’whoa’. And it was almost to the point of, ‘ok now I need to work out what to do with this’ because I really wasn’t expecting it. Like everything else I’ve done with MediaScope I’ve just worked at it and worked at it until the market’s more or less told me what to do with it. Peggy’s List just took off straight away.
Darren:
Peggy’s List, obviously for those that don’t realise is around Peggy Olsen from Mad Men.
Denise:
Yes, I remember asking Anton at one stage who works with you, ‘do you think they might get angry at me for using their name?’. I just thought well they’ll never know, it’s just this little thing in the Australian market but it does seem to have taken off and yes, Peggy is the inspiration from Mad Men, and it highlights women who are available to speak at industry events, comment on articles, be part of panels and so on.
At the moment it has just under 200 women on it. Originally, of course, it started with predominantly media women because that’s where my contact base is really focused, but slowly but surely I’ve moved beyond that media sector into creative, accounts services, and journalists are there now.
I don’t have a problem, growing the list. The interesting thing I’ve found with Peggy’s List is while I don’t get asked an enormous amount by event organisers to actually get a copy of the list it does seem to have gone some way to change their mind set.
I’ve a conference organiser, they know that this is existing, they know that it’s there. Mumbrella was a great example of them being really on the front foot this year, of saying, ‘we are working actively for diversity’.
Darren:
Also, you’ve set up a second list haven’t you?
Denise:
Don’s list has also been set up, really in recognition that we can’t do this without the blokes.
Darren:
Or at least giving men the chance to support the initiative.
Denise:
That’s exactly right.
Darren:
Because I signed up to Don’s List, which is that I won’t speak at an event that is male skewed.
Denise:
That’s exactly right. So, it’s a very similar concept, I think, to the Panel Pledge but it just gave the blokes in our industry an opportunity to support the initiative. It hasn’t taken off as well, it hasn’t got the numbers that Peggy’s List does but perhaps I need to push it a little bit more to the men in our industry.
There certainly is that recognition there that this is something that we can easily achieve. I have to say though I’ve now come to the feeling through speaking to lots of event organisers that it is a two-way issue.
Women also need to be better at putting their hands up and not saying ‘no’ when they’re approached. And again, to me, there are a multitude of reasons that perhaps it is difficult to get women involved at times. I think again the confidence issue over competence.
Darren:
That’s a big issue because even in our own organisation we’ve got a reasonably balanced consulting base and I get more from the women than the men about contributing articles to our successful blog. Often there’s a feeling that the women have, they basically come from a position of, ‘well I’m not sure that I have anything that people will want to read’.
Denise:
Yes.
Darren:
I go well all of us feel that way but just commit it to words and let’s see how it goes because it really is no reflection whatsoever. You know I’ve written a lot of articles that no one’s interested in reading and other articles that keep getting 1,000’s of readers every month. It says nothing about me and everything about the content. It’s also about encouraging people to find their voice.
Denise:
Oh absolutely. Form a view.
Darren:
And support it. When you first start expressing your own opinions what you really want is an environment of encouragement and constructive feedback rather than what you’ll often find in the industry is just this anonymous criticism, which is incredibly destructive if someone is feeling vulnerable in the first place.
Denise:
I couldn’t agree more. First of all, I’m very conscious that you put your head a little above the parapet and yes you’re inviting to get shot down so I think we all have to be a little bit conscious of that when you form a view.
Darren:
After 16 years I don’t care.
Denise:
You don’t care. I’m a lot more sensitive than you so I certainly care but I have got better at that as I’ve got older, which is another thing that comes with a bit of age is a bit more confidence.
Darren:
A bit more wisdom.
Denise:
A bit more wisdom, a bit more confidence, and a bit more, ‘I don’t care anyway’ but I certainly encourage women to form a view, be brave enough to put that view out there. Yes, I still speak to supposedly very senior women now who feel like they’ve got nothing to say. I mean I’m just gobsmacked by that…
Darren:
Which is crazy.
Denise:
Issue. But having said that I can completely relate to it. I still have that on a daily basis myself.
Content creation and finding your voice
Darren:
But here’s the point, they have their own unique perspective. Let’s pick something like programmatic buying, ok? There’s been millions of words written about programmatic buying but every person brings their own unique perspective to it.
So, this is the great thing about the internet is that there are so many opportunities to contribute to that conversation even if you are reinforcing what someone else has said but saying it in your own way because when you find your voice you’ll also find an audience because you’ll attract the people who find either what you’re saying or the way you’re saying it incredibly desirable.
And that’s the point you don’t have to be the bestselling author you just need to find your voice and find the audience that appreciates it.
Denise:
I couldn’t agree more. Look there’s a lot of content out there. We could sit and read content all day whether it be within our trade media or people like you and I producing content, we’re not short of content.
But you’re right; it’s having a view, putting it out there, and what I really like to see too in a view is an evolving thing. Your view doesn’t start with your first point of view or your first time that you have an opportunity to do that. Take a lot of notice of the feedback that you get because that helps you evolve your view as well. First of all, any view has to be based on something you care about.
Darren:
Yeah, you’ve got to be passionate.
Denise:
You’ve got to be passionate about it so find something that you care about, start talking about it, get a point of view out there, be prepared to defend it but also be prepared to acknowledge people who come at you with perhaps a different view.
The National Broadband Network
Darren:
Now, I just noticed the time, Denise. There’s one question that I really wanted to ask you and that is there’s a lot of challenges facing the industry and we’ve talked about some of them around media, around technology, and also gender but what do you think is the greatest challenge at this moment in Australia facing the media and marketing industry?
Denise:
Look I think it’s a major challenge facing beyond our sector and of course it’s a topic I’ve been very vocal about probably since about March, and that’s the NBN, so the National Broadband Network.
I think that really impacts our industry quite profoundly and quite enormously. I think it impacts the broader Australian community profoundly and enormously and it’s a topic that I’ve been very vocal about starting with an open letter that I presented to the market through LinkedIn in June.
And I really came across this topic in a curious way.
I’ve had a sort of political awakening in the last 6 to 12 months, which is a frightening thing but I recommend that everyone really increases their awareness of what’s going on in politics beyond mainstream media and beyond the ABC.
I was on the Ozpol hash tag on Twitter one day, which I’m also quite active on these days, and literally saw the now ex ABC tech journo tweet on the day he was made redundant. He tweeted something along the lines of ‘now I can talk honestly about the NBN’, and that really just took me down this rabbit hole of finding out what was going on at the NBN.
Of course I was looking at it through the lens of our industry, the impact of our industry and really realised that Australia currently being placed 60th in terms of broadband speed and connectivity will have enormous effects on our industry from a marketing media advertising point of view as we increasingly become part of a global industry in a global community.
Darren:
Well it was actually our now prime minister which downgraded the original vision of the NBN from being point to point to node to node so that it’s made it so that not only is it going to cost more than the original cost but we’re actually going to have a second rate solution to what was originally proposed.
Denise:
That’s exactly right. So the original model was based on two roll out plans so there was a fibre to the premise and then there was satellite. Fibre to the premise for 93% of Australians and 7% of Australians living in more regional remote areas would be getting satellite.
So a new government came in with the Communications Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, Tony Abbot the Prime Minister, and they basically scrapped that and they’ve now gone to what’s called an MTM model, multi technology mix.
Darren:
Which was supposed to be cheaper.
Denise:
It was supposed to be cheapest but the whole thing was cheaper, faster to roll out, and just as effective but in fact now the costs have blown out incredibly so it’s now $56 billion. It is by far our most expensive infrastructure project in Australian history and the most frustrating thing about it is that it’s not going to meet our ongoing needs.
So already you’re seeing people who have been given the MTM are already saying it’s no faster than my ADSL. We’re seeing people who are very under served by a very sub-standard technology mix. And there’s even talk that if this is rolled out in its completion we’ll already be behind the 8 ball. Already we can’t compete in the global market.
Darren:
I do a lot of travel with my business and countries like South Korea they have fibre to the premise and it flies. I come back to Australia and I feel like I’ve stepped into a third world country because my ADSL where I live during peak times is slow, NBN is being rolled out all around us but Telstra and NBN are arguing over who’s actually going to provide the cable into the premise.
So, I live 14kms from the GPO but two large organisations can’t make a decision about who should be responsible.
Denise:
This is a massive issue for our industry on so many levels. First of all, from a publisher point of view, ad-blocking. Apparently 20 to 30% of any download is based on advertising, so if your internet is sluggish or not reliable then one of the first things you’ll do to lighten that load is ad-blocking – a very obvious solution to that.
For some reason that’s not been spoken about very regularly by publishers in Australia.
Darren:
Well they’re all kissing the government’s arse aren’t they?
Denise:
Yes, there’s definitely a lot of that.
Darren:
I can say that but you wouldn’t comment because you’re a nice woman.
Denise:
Yes, I’m far too diplomatic to say that.
From a marketer’s point of view, I need to reach my audiences. It doesn’t take very long to realise that certainly in regional areas and even in our CBD areas and in our suburbs that people are really struggling with their internet connection.
This means as a marketer I’m struggling getting my message, and my product, and my services through digital communications, which is the prime way of communicating. I’m struggling to get my message now to my audiences.
From a media agency’s point of view, I can’t get my ads to my audiences and I also can’t reach my potential. We spoke about Pokémon Go so all of a sudden that’s put virtual reality, augmented reality on the map. Based on the current roll out of the NBN, Australia will never reach its potential with that technology. It’s as simple as that.
But no one is recognising that. It does my head in.
Darren:
You realise we’re having this conversation less than 100 metres from the head office of the NBN?
Denise:
We should drop by. I’m sure they’d love me.
Darren:
I can only get ADSL here. I keep considering should I just get 100 metres of fibre-optic cable and run it across the road and say, ‘can you please supply it here’? But apparently they don’t have it either.
Denise:
But, as we well know, by some things that have happened this year just prior to the election, people working within NBN are certainly not pleased with the current circumstance either.
We see that through multiple leaks that are coming out of NBN co, from people who really are disgruntled with what’s going on and know that the current plan is incorrect. Unfortunately, the NBN, it’s an infrastructure project but it’s been an infrastructure project that’s been incredibly politicised for all sorts of reasons, and it’s because of political reasons rather than Australian community-need reasons that we’re in the current state that we are in.
Darren:
Denise, we have to spend millions and millions of dollars running a plebiscite on marriage equality before we can begin to fix the internet infrastructure of this country.
Denise:
Don’t get me started, Darren. As I said, please recommend every one go on the Ozpol Twitter hash tag, the largest political hash tag in the world, the third largest community hash tag in the world. And the reason that it’s so large is that Australians are frustrated that we’re not getting our views heard.
Darren:
So, your website is mediascope.com.au?
Denise:
Yes. Please come and subscribe to my weekly newsletter every Friday morning, 9.30, it goes to 2,500 at the moment.
Darren:
There’s links there to the open letter on LinkedIn around the NBN co, and also there’s the MediaScapes.
Denise:
The MediaScapes are certainly all listed there and the community now very openly gets involved with me to help me keep them updated and to help keep them a fair reflection of their markets, which is great.
Darren:
And if there’s women in the industry that want to put their hand up to say that they’re open or free to speak, please join Peggy’s List.
Denise:
Peggy’s List is certainly on the website as well. You can add your own details into Peggy’s List, and please the more women that we get in there the more impact we’ll have on the market.
Darren:
And the men that want to support that initiative can join Don’s List.
Denise:
Don’s List is certainly there. So all through mediascope.com.au.
Darren:
So, Denise, I hope you can see why I was really looking forward to having this chat because there is so much going on there and I want to thank you for making the time for sitting down and having a chat.
Denise:
That was a pleasure. Thank you everyone.
Darren:
You’ve reminded me that I should update the Trinity P3 Mediascape.
Denise:
We’ll talk.
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